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02-15-2004, 08:04 PM | #16 |
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Since nature is something that comes from the earth, humans, cities, and civilzation are all a part of nature. This effectively renders the term meaningless.
Last edited by juju; 02-15-2004 at 08:08 PM. |
02-15-2004, 08:13 PM | #17 |
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Disagree. Civilization, as defined by the American Heritage dictionary at least, is "A condition of human society marked by an advanced stage of development in the arts and sciences and by corresponding social, political, and cultural complexity."
When that condition results in people becoming unaware (whether deliberately or not) of the forces controlling the world outside their civilization, they are 'removed from nature'. I stand by my original comment. I think. |
02-15-2004, 08:17 PM | #18 |
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In what way are humans and civilization not a part of nature? They affect it more than anything, AND they were created by it, AND co-exist with everything else that was created by it.
That sort of thinking only serves to advance the idea that humans are evil. Your definiton of nature is "not human" (correct me if I'm wrong). That's silly. Other organisms also do things that are to the detriment of other organisms. In fact, I'd say nearly every one of them does. |
02-15-2004, 08:23 PM | #19 | |
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02-15-2004, 08:28 PM | #20 |
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Not to presume to know another's thoughts ... but I think he means "nature" in the sense of "not created by the hand of man".
Civilization is, as far as we understand it, part of the natural growth of society ... but it isn't "natural."
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02-15-2004, 08:29 PM | #21 |
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Point taken. I have to back off, but only a little. I would amend my statement (to the horror of my journalism profs) to say, "Civilization, at its most advanced, tends to isolate humans from those factors which govern non-civilized beings." This leads, in turn, to a desensitization that is DE-evolutionary, in my opinion.
Geez. You're backing me into a hole, cut it out. lol Another point of contention - I think we overestimate our effect on the rest of the world. We certainly try hard enough, but one good plague, seismic event, or climate change could crush our species as surely as any other species. The thing we're best at is endangering our own existence. I say drill the hell out of Alaska, it'll live. I'm gonna get dinged on "de-evolutionary", I just know it. |
02-15-2004, 08:42 PM | #22 | ||||
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Of course there are many potential natural disasters that could be very detrimental to us. But other animals are at the exact same risk. Anyway, don't think I'm attacking you. I just find the subject interesting. :) |
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02-15-2004, 08:51 PM | #23 | |
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02-15-2004, 08:51 PM | #24 | |
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What we have here is a failure to communicate. English has the terms to express what you're trying to here, but it's clumsy at best with the customary vocabulary. If I'm understanding your train of thought, you're saying "Plastics are natural because they contain long chains of carbon and hydrogen."
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wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis |
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02-15-2004, 08:57 PM | #25 |
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They're natural because they're made up of elements found in the earth. Elements that exist in nature. The fact that an animal that comes from nature messed with it shouldn't "taint" it.
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02-15-2004, 08:59 PM | #26 |
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Is oxygen unnatural because it's created by plants from carbon dioxide?
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02-15-2004, 09:00 PM | #27 |
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Define "unnatural" then.
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02-15-2004, 09:01 PM | #28 | |
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02-15-2004, 09:02 PM | #29 |
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That's what I'm saying. The word is meaningless!
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02-15-2004, 09:05 PM | #30 |
lobber of scimitars
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Oxygen is natural because it "comes" that way ... two molecules of O, stuck to each other. It's not FORCED into that configuration by photosynthesis.
Consider ... Uranium, naturally occuring element. Plutonium ... only exists because man tosses additional neutrons in Uranium's general direction which are absorbed by the nucleus, creating this new artificial element. The trans uranicelements IIRC (it's been a good 25 years since I did any hard science), are similarly constructed -- Don't occur in nature, some only exist briefly in the lab. When the whale uses it's penis to make another little whale, that's part of the process of nature. When Uncle DuPey uses an assortment of hydrocarbons to make paint and plastic and a myriad of other things that make living better, that's chemistry ... and while the components are organic molecules, it's not natural, dammit!!
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