ONE QUARTER OF ONE MILLION

[lumberjim]

have you considered 'phone sex operator'?

Originally posted by lumberjim
have you considered 'phone sex operator'?

One ringy dingy, two ringy dingy, oooooooh! (Puts on my best Lily Tomlin expression, and scrunches up my lips ala Lilly).

[DanaC]

I just find it outrageous that the most wealthy nation that exists or indeed has ever existed cannot just grit it's teeth and give all it's citizens a decent standard of living.

That doesnt mean everyone will live for free....Welfare is never going to pay for the holidays or good cars that most people aspire to so there will always be a reason for people to push themselves forwards.

Its just about where you set the bottom bar.....I can understand a country like India setting the bottom bar at homelessness and starvation but I fail to see why the United States of America is prepared to accept that as its bottom bar.

[wolf]

Originally posted by DanaC
I just find it outrageous that the most wealthy nation that exists or indeed has ever existed cannot just grit it's teeth and give all it's citizens a decent standard of living.

That's not the job of the government, dear. You socialists have it wrong.

[Yelof]

That's not the job of the government

No it would seem the job of the government is to push back into the cave any brave soul which sets out to find the source of the flickerig shadows.

Danac is right, no modern society is without basic standards, be it of water quality, air quality or even in most countries life quality. If priorities and resources were available what exactly would be immoral about setting a limit on the level of poverty in a country as rich as the US. We are not talking limiting the other end of the wealth scale?

[elSicomoro]

Yelof, the fundamental difference between the US and most countries is that the US is much more individualistic. To an outsider, it looks like we may be cold and uncaring. As a whole, I do not think we are either. A bit callous, yes. Cold and uncaring, no. Most Americans can get one hot meal a day, a place to sleep and emergency medical care if needed. It ain't much, that's for sure. But it's better than nothing.

On a fundamental level, I do believe the government should take good care of me, as I help take care of it. Unfortunately, the chances of cutting the stupid-ass bureaucratic red tape in this country are slim to none. In addition, most Americans do not wish to have higher taxes or more government.

As of 2002, 12.1% of all Americans were below the poverty line. That's up from the end of the 90s, but down compared to 20 and 40 years ago. (Source) That's a lot of people, but not bad for a country of our size.

[DanaC]

That's not the job of the government, dear. You socialists have it wrong.

What do you consider the government's job to be?

[DanaC]

In addition, most Americans do not wish to have higher taxes or more government.

I wouldnt raise the tax for most people. I would only raise taxes for the wealthier elements of society. The wealthy elite could easily pay a few more per cent on their enormous incomes and still increase the gap between the haves and the have nots.

Its not aboiut more government either. Its about similar levels of government energy focussed in the right place. Less attention given to seeking out potheads( and all the costs incurred in that ) and maybe more government attention on making sure people dont starve or go homeless or are unable to gain access to medical services. The medicare system does not mean evryone has access to medicine. Or not the way I have heard it explained anyway. From what I am led to understand there is a fairly small portion of the population who have no access to healthcare

[richlevy]

Will this affect returning military personnel? I'm still not clear on the level of protection provided by Soldiers and Sailors Act, but I know that it ends upon release from active duty?

While interest payments drop to %6 while on active, everything comes back when active duty ends.

Even assuming that employers have held their jobs, or an equivalent, bills will have piled up. Items like vouchers might be needed.

Originally posted by wolf


That's not the job of the government, dear. You socialists have it wrong.

It is the job of government to "promote the general welfare" of its people. What is the one thing that makes a country properous? Natural resources such as petroleum, minerals, precious metals, arable farm land can help a country achieve prosperity, but it is the people of the country who must act to ensure that prosperous conditions prevail. Countries without many natural resources can still be prosperous. Look at Japan. Look at Switzerland.

The United States stands alone among other Western nations in the lack of assistance it gives to its people. Why is this? Because our national subconscious still accepts a paradigm of the United States that ceased to be valid at least 50 years ago. Still, in the back of the mind of every American citizen we view this country as our Pilgrim ancestors did - a vast land of opportunity where anything was possible, and with enough hard work we could achieve our dreams. Our children are still taught to lisp the words of "America the Beautiful": "Oh beautiful for spacious skies, for amber waves of grain, for purple mountains' majesty above the FRUITED plain."

The reality is that America has become a land of limits. It stops at the Pacific ocean. There is nowhere else to go (except to seize power in other countries, of course). The complexity of the modrn world has made education a necessity, not the comparitive luxury it once was when there was always simple (if hard) work on our farms and factories. Today the family farm has given way to agribusiness, and our factories have been outsourced to China, our technology is being outsourced to India. Our economy is vitally dependent on petroleum largely extracted from an area of the world which hates us. The extended family unit has vanished and its every man or woman for themselves.

Middle class America does not want to recognize these things. Nobody likes paradigm shifts and Americans are no different from anybody else in this regard. Life is hard enough, supporting our families, going to school, trying to do a decent job at work. And Americans ARE a hardworking people. The Protestant work ethic has been bred into us and we are suspicious of people who we perceive as not sharing that ethic.

We look at our paychecks and see that the government is skimming 1/3 right off the top for something called "FICA" - that's welfare, or social security, or entitlement programs - however you want to look at it. That notation "FICA" is one of the biggest lies the American government tells its people. That money is supposed to go to the social security fund. Instead, it goes to every government boondoggle imaginable, all in the name of the poor and disabled - the group least able to speak out for themselves.

People attack this misuse of their money by blaming the disabled and the poor and the elderly. Their idea of government accountability is not to demand that the government spend this money on what it was intended for, but rather that the government throw our old people and our disabled to the dogs.

Even if Radar were elected president tomorrow and Wolf and Smooth Moniker were made members of his cabinet, and the old and disabled were thrown to the wolves, the rest of you who live in the states would see little difference in your tax burden. That's because so little of what you pay in taxes actually went to social programs in the first place.

I sometimes wonder what Radar and company would do about the elderly and the disabled. The cities in America already have a large number of homeless people wandering about, sleeping on sidewalks, holding up signs at intersections that read "Please help." They are not only a nuisance and unsightly, but an embaraasment when hosting foreign businessmen and dignatories. Should Radar ever become president, my suggestion is that he order out the army and have us all shot. As someone who has been homeless with no medical care and little food, I can assure you all that this would be the most humane solution. Put us all out of our misery and do so quickly, so that you all can be proud to be Americans again. Get rid of your people.

There is a picture which I have seen hanging in an office somewhere which has burned itself into my memory. It shows a man with a hard hat and engineering plans spread out in his hands. He is on a construction site and he sits in a wheelchair. Underneath the picture is a caption which reads "America needs ALL its people."

I have two graduate degrees. I spent the better part of my life as a librarian and a college teacher. I loved my work and I worked hard. I feel incredibly fortunate to have been given the opportunities I was given. I want to give back what I was so lucky to obtain. I have over 20 years experience in my profession and a love for young people. I want more than anything in this world to stand on my own two feet and be a productive member of society again. Thanks to an unfair divorce settlement and my own stubborn refusal to ask for help (I considered applying for disability a major personal defeat), I went through every penny I had and I had no medical insurance. I had to fight the government for 5 long, bitter years just to get the medical help I need. Even now, I can't find a neurologist who will accept Medicaid.

As far as I'm concerned, its like taking a well made Swiss watch worth thousands of dollars and throwing it in the trash for lack of a $2.00 battery to refuse to help a person like me with my background and education and desire to work. I am not so arrogant as to believe that I am that unique. There are many, many other people just like me in this country who simply need a hand reached out in encouragement - not some hand out.

Radar and Wolf and Smooth Moniker would rather throw us all in some human garbage heap than extend ten cents of their own money to help us. Its easy to feel animosity toward that alcoholic Vietnam vet with the "Please help" sign. Why doesn't he just sober up and get a job? Why should I have to support HIS drinking habit? This attitude gets extended to the disabled community in general. Unlike the faceless government beaurocrat who tells you lies and mismanages your tax dollar, you have a face to put on the poor. That drunk down on the corner. And of course, everybody has some story to tell about someone they knew or their neighbor knew or their cousin's neighbor knew who was outrageously milking the system. Well maybe they were, and maybe they weren't. Just how well did you know this person you tell the horror story about? Did you sit down and share a meal with them? Did you exchange the stories of your lives, your hopes, your concerns, the victories you won and the things that defeated you? Most likely not.

The middle class travels in a well protected bubble. All their friends have jobs and they went to school and they worked hard and they don't see why everybody else can't do the same. Too many of the American middle class are intellectually lazy; they lack the imagination; and most of all, they lack the courage to understand how what they have achieved might not be possible for some people.

There is a great deal of prejudice against the handicapped in America today. This prejudice is largely born out of fear which is mostly subconscious. People fear becoming one of "them." People want to think that their lives are secure, at least to some extent. They don't want to face the reality that bad things can happen to THEM. When they see it happen to someone else, it must be that person's own fault.

Goddamn you, Radar! Goddamn you, Smoothmoniker, Goddamn you Wolf! I'm no different than you. I'm a human being, too. All I ask for is a fighting chance and all you have to offer me is your smug indifference. I and every other American like me. I am here to tell you that what happened to me could happen to you. When you look at that man on the street corner if you have the guts to meet his eyes, you will see your own eyes reflected back at you. When you look in the mirror, it is my eyes and the eyes of every other American looing back at you. "Ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for thee."

[xoxoxoBruce]

As of 2002, 12.1% of all Americans were below the poverty line. That's up from the end of the 90s, but down compared to 20 and 40 years ago. (Source) That's a lot of people, but not bad for a country of our size.

According to the website, the poverty level is:
One person.............................. 9,183
Under 65.............................. 9,359
65 and over........................... 8,628
I’m not quite sure why there’s three numbers, but 125% of $9183 is $11,479, which they call "near poverty" and is another 4.4% of the population
Damn, I’d hate to try living on that without help. I also wonder how many people go uncounted. Under the radar, so to speak.

This table gives the poverty level.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by DanaC
I wouldnt raise the tax for most people. I would only raise taxes for the wealthier elements of society. The wealthy elite could easily pay a few more per cent on their enormous incomes and still increase the gap between the haves and the have nots.

But why should wealthier people be taxed more? After all, many of them worked hard for that money. Not that I completely disagree with you, but I'm curious as to your rationale.

Its not aboiut more government either. Its about similar levels of government energy focussed in the right place. Less attention given to seeking out potheads( and all the costs incurred in that ) and maybe more government attention on making sure people dont starve or go homeless or are unable to gain access to medical services.

Nice idea, but I don't think it would work. Law enforcement and medicine are two totally different realms. You have to have the right tools to do the job. Health care costs continue to rise as well.

The medicare system does not mean evryone has access to medicine. Or not the way I have heard it explained anyway.

Medicare is for those 65 and older, the disabled and those with end-stage renal failure. However, there are laws in place that give people the right to necessary medical treatment regardless of their ability to pay.

From what I am led to understand there is a fairly small portion of the population who have no access to healthcare

Depends on where you get the numbers from...it's anywhere from 20-40 million...7-14% of the US population.

[DanaC]

20-40 million people with no access to medicical attention? *shakes head* I dont understand why you guys are prepared to accept that.

As to my rationale ....I guess it goes something like this. You can either look at wealth and resources in terms of who deserves it....or you can look at them in terms of who needs it. I believe in a small degree of redistribution of wealth. I am not ( as I was in my youth) a revolutionary socialist. I dont believe that people should be prevented from following their goals , whatever those goals shold be. If people want to try their hand at making millions, I say good luck to them. I also say that it was their society which made such a thing possible. It was their society that likely provided them a market, probably a labourforce, the basic infrastructures which make a city tick along......All these things are a part of a whole. I say that their wealth is a product of their society as well as their own individual efforts.

Mostly though its about whether or not one believes in making an attempt to elevate one's society above and beyond the confines of the hierarchy of needs. Of those people who spend their lives dragging themselves from one disaster to the next with no real chance to escape the grinding poverty they were born into, how many could have been great? How many could have done something truly creditable if only they hadnt had to waste 40 years struggling against hunger or the deep and nasty depression that comes from money worries.

The rich dont get rich in a vacuum. We are all a part of the equation that makes them the elite. I say we make em pay for the privelege of having gotten rich off us......

It doesnt matter much to me who deserves it. What matters to me is who needs it. Thats why I really dont mind paying my taxes. Its why I wish a larger percentage of them went to helping people who have fallen down on their luck.

It also makes economic sense. If you give people little or no social provision then the grey economy becomes even larger and thats all money thats getting lost to the system. If people have their basic needs met and a small amount on top to live on they'll spend that money in shops.

If people are able to survive without work but with some dignity
( ie dont give them stamps give them currency. I have unemployed friends they get their money paid directly into their bank account.) employers will be forced to offer their workforce better conditions/packages. This will lead to higher wages and therefore higher spending power. The higher wages and higher spending power will attract the people who arent in work thereby reducing the number of people defrauding the system.

Personally I would prefer that people are taking a job because it will improve their lives and allow them to do all the things middle class people take so much for granted (like hifis and holidays, decent cars and nice toys for the kids at christmas, an abundance of good food) ....I'd prefer that to them taking a job because the alternative is as miserable as any calcutta beggar's existence. My fellow citizens are exactly that. I would not want any of them to go to the wall.

[xoxoxoBruce]

We look at our paychecks and see that the government is skimming 1/3 right off the top for something called "FICA" - that's welfare, or social security, or entitlement programs - however you want to look at it.

My paystub says I pay about 1.5% to medicare and 6.2% to Social Security. I know my employer matches the SS deduction but from MY check it's 6.2%.

That notation "FICA" is one of the biggest lies the American government tells its people. That money is supposed to go to the social security fund. Instead, it goes to every government boondoggle imaginable, all in the name of the poor and disabled - the group least able to speak out for themselves

That's exactly why I resist any more gumint programs for any cause. They are they most inefficient and mismanaged way to attack any problem. Attacking working people because they feel they are taxed enough, is stupid. The problem and the proper target for your ire, is the gumint and the way it spends(wastes/mismanages/misdirects) the taxes they already collect. my personal pet peeve is any program that's justified under the vast umbrella, "for the children".

my own stubborn refusal to ask for help (I considered applying for disability a major personal defeat)

Ask for help from whom? Bad things happen to good people(and bad people) but it seems you contributed to the present situation by your actions, or should I say inactions. Personally I don't see how being a "swiss watch" makes you more deserving of help than the dropout. People are people, and should be treated humanely.

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
That's exactly why I resist any more gumint programs for any cause. They are they most inefficient and mismanaged way to attack any problem. Attacking working people because they feel they are taxed enough, is stupid. The problem and the proper target for your ire, is the gumint and the way it spends(wastes/mismanages/misdirects) the taxes they already collect. my personal pet peeve is any program that's justified under the vast umbrella, "for the children".

The government was exactly the entity I was attacking in the quote you responded to. What I disagree with is the average working person's unquestioning assumption that the government is really spending the money for what it says it is. Certainly, it is stupid to attack people because they feel taxed enough; just as it is stupid to attack the poor for government spending that they are not the recipients of.

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
Ask for help from whom? Bad things happen to good people(and bad people) but it seems you contributed to the present situation by your actions, or should I say inactions. Personally I don't see how being a "swiss watch" makes you more deserving of help than the dropout. People are people, and should be treated humanely.

ASking for help from the government, Bruce - applying for SSDI. Sure, I contributed to my problem by not running down right away and filing for disability. I kept trying to work. Whatever was I thinking of?

Nor do I think I'm any more or any less deserving of help than any other person. It is my personal belief that every single one of us is the equal to that expensive Swiss watch. Every human being has his or her own unique qualities and special talents to offer. I wish for help for us ALL. I am sorry that I failed to convey that in my post, because that means more than anything to me - that so very many good people are going by the wayside for lack of help.