One difference between Europe and the US

[Undertoad]

Maybe that's part of the difference; a clear enemy.

Maybe it's unfair to say a leader might be representative of the character of the people. Buuuut, although we make a big deal over the differences between the parties, you can bet that either party would have had a similar reaction post-911 and probably taken similar actions. I can't imagine President Gore going on TV in the days after and telling a stunned nation that since we can't prosecute the dead bombers our only option is to politely ask the UN whether to enforce the Afghani authorities to respect our extradition and information requests of the gentlemen they are hosting and have not yet arrested. The people would be furious.

[blue]

For instance, I have an irrational love for ABBA

Ewww! Now I got that shit in my head, thanks a lot!

take a chance, take a chance, take a chance....

[be-bop]

Reading the Cellar these last few months has given me an enormous insight into the American view of world events and I tend to agree on many things.But I think what pisses off many europeans is the go getter gung ho attitude that many Americans have, this is not necessarily a bad thing but europeans do tend to be a bit more reserved.
However 9/11took the whole world to a new level of mindset and the sooner Europe gets its act together the better it will be for all concerned.
This liberal/PC attitude that the west is to blame for all the arab nations ills and misfortune is bullshit.
What we have got to realise is that this is no small band of terrorists fighting for freedom in their own land/lands this is one civilization trying to invade and impose their will/ religion on us as they class the whole west as the Great Satan.
Its fanatics we are dealing with who want to live in a true Islamic world.
We have the ridiculous sutuation in England where Muslum clerics banned from their mosque are preaching race hate on the streets and receiving state welfare benefits from the country they supposedly hate as corrupt and unclean.Many Muslums/arabs are peace loving people but the fanatics seem to be growing at a frightening rate.Strange though don't see many of their leaders in a hurry to go to paradise,but joking aside things are going to get worse and all the hand wringing and gnashing off teeth and appeasement will only make things worse.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Maybe just step in a take over Pakistan, I'm sure they'll all calm down and go back to eating dirt after that.

That's the problem, too many people eating dirt. Anybody that wants to control a population of poor people has to have an enemy to blame things on. The communists, religious extremists and despots everywhere, have preached the doctrine of the evil Americans are at fault. A common enemy, a common goal to sacrifice for, to keep the people from bitching that they were eating dirt and from noticing how well these leaders were living.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally posted by blue58


Ewww! Now I got that shit in my head, thanks a lot!

take a chance, take a chance, take a chance....

Oh hell now you got me doin' it.

ba ba ba ba baaaaaaaa babababa baaaaaaa. Honey I'm still free...

[Undertoad]

See, we are all Europeans now.

[richlevy]

Originally posted by Undertoad
You punch us in the gut, it only makes us madder. You punch Europe in the gut and half of it shrinks back and tries to figure out how to walk away.

I prefer the US response. But then again, I'm in it.

I saw an episode of a TV show where a woman is raped and her boyfriend goes to pick her up. As they are driving home the woman sees a man walking on the street and starts screaming 'It's him". The boyfriend jumps out of the car, follows the guy, and beats him.

He gets back in the car, and a block later his girlfriend sees another man and starts screaming "It's him".

I'm all for a measured, planned, and effective response against the correct target.

Unfortunately, terrorists, revolutionaries, insurgents, etc, do not play fair. They disappear into civilian populations. While some of these civilians might be sympathizers, the majority have no idea who is living down the block.

Finding government involvement is even more difficult. If the Nicaraguan government in the 1980's was looking for proof that the US goverment was arming the Contra's, they would have had a great deal of difficulty finding proof. In fact, the US goverment had a policy forbidding such involvement. The arms to the Contras was the result of an illegal plot within the US government which bypassed the legislative branch.

So assuming that the Nicaraguans had massively superior firepower, would the US have been a legitimate target for them considering the aid to the Contras was illegal and unsanctioned by the majority of the US goverment?

These questions require thought, and a measured and deliberate response takes planning. The cluster fuck we are engaged in with Iraq is an example of what happens when you do not plan.

As for the shotgun/knife metaphor, there are times when a shotgun is not the right weapon, such as a crowded subway. Given the state of the Middle East, a knife is a much better weapon. For every bystander killed, 10 future terrorists are created. Trying to use overwhelming force in these situations is very dangerous and breeds resentment which undercuts efforts to win 'hearts and minds'.

And unless you intend to turn the entire Middle East into a giant slab of radioactive glass, you will need to win those hearts and minds.

It's very possible that Europe is learning from our mistakes. I don't know what Spain has for counter-terrorism, but considering the UK's SAS, writing off the Europeans as a bunch of wimps would be stupid.

Even the Israeli's did not react to Munich with a bombing campaign. Instead they spent years hunting down and killing those involved, which was probably more terrifying for their targets than any attack by tank or plane.

[jaguar]

Both richlevy and xoxoxoBruce are correct.
I simply don't understand the attitude of many here of 'fuck the goddamn sandniggers, lets just kill all the fuckers. It's at best emotive and irrational. It's not going to solve it.

My personal solution is something closer to what happened in Europe Post-WW2. Massive external capital injection. Give them clean water, jobs, better conditional, poltiical power(which has been proven to be closely linked to happiness). Somehow I feel calls to wage jihad may just fall on deaf ears if the great stan just gave you a good job so you can buy your family stuff, clean water, political stability...I mean maybe they aren't so bad after all.....hmmm

Verses kicking in the door of your hovel and capping a couple of family members while looking for another terrorist. Who just happens to be an ex-student who's best mate was accidently killed by forces occupying your country.

There is a chance to do this in Iraq, but Bush hasn't the political will or foresight to pull it off.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Massive external capital injection. Give them clean water, jobs, better conditional, poltiical power(which has been proven to be closely linked to happiness).

That would probably work. We're doing that in China and India but we're running out of jobs to give them and once we give all the jobs away how will we finance the plan?

[vsp]

Originally posted by Undertoad
I can't imagine President Gore going on TV in the days after and telling a stunned nation that since we can't prosecute the dead bombers our only option is to politely ask the UN whether to enforce the Afghani authorities to respect our extradition and information requests of the gentlemen they are hosting and have not yet arrested. The people would be furious.

The thing is, _I_ can't imagine President Gore going on TV a few months later and essentially saying "Osama who? We'd rather go after Saddam while we're in the neighborhood."

Of course, President Gore would have his hands full knocking Veep Lieberman away from the nuclear football each morning. "No, you CAN'T nuke the Arabs OR Rockstar Games OR Infinity Broadcasting OR the cast of 'Friends'. How many times do I have to tell you that?"

[vsp]

Originally posted by be-bop
This conservative/warhawk attitude that Saddam Hussein and Al-Qaeda are to blame for all the western nations' ills and misfortune is bullshit.
What we have got to realise is that this is no small band of terrorists fighting for freedom in their own land/lands this is one civilization trying to invade and impose their will/ religion on us as they class the whole Middle East as the Great Satan.
Its fanatics we are dealing with who want to live in a true Christian world.
We have the ridiculous sutuation in America where Christian evangelicals are preaching race hate on television and receiving faith-based charity benefits from the country they supposedly hate as corrupt and unclean. Many Christians/Americans are peace loving people but the fanatics seem to be growing at a frightening rate.

I fixed your quote for you.

Yes, I am afraid of religious fanatics who hate American culture, hate American freedoms, and would love nothing more than to see their religious worldview and beliefs become entrenched into American law and society. But you know what? I'm not as afraid of the "Islamofascists" half a world away as I am of the "Christian Reconstructionists" who are not only ALREADY HERE, but who have already wormed their way into positions in local, state and federal governments alike. Second verse, same as the first, just with a different Invisible Man In The Sky being promoted.

[jaguar]

That would probably work. We're doing that in China and India but we're running out of jobs to give them and once we give all the jobs away how will we finance the plan?

Give 'em defence contracts, they always seem to blow out enough to feed half of africa.

The issue is complicated, the biggest issue it political control in the Middle east, places like Lebenon have serious economiic issues caused by government mismanagement. There are small, innovative companies through the ME who just need government support to grow. Similar programs have proven effective in africa. Another thing which is to a tiny degree being tackled is Education, in many parts of the ME as well as swaths of Indonesia free islamic schools are the only education around, that needs to change.

Liberman should stop hiding in the closet and come out as a republician already.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Give 'em defence contracts, they always seem to blow out enough to feed half of africa.

Almost 50% of the money we spend on defence IS going out of the country. The large American defence contractors are buying parts from offshore suppliers at an alarming rate.

[be-bop]

Originally posted by vsp



I fixed your quote for you.

Yes, I am afraid of religious fanatics who hate American culture, hate American freedoms, and would love nothing more than to see their religious worldview and beliefs become entrenched into American law and society. But you know what? I'm not as afraid of the "Islamofascists" half a world away as I am of the "Christian Reconstructionists" who are not only ALREADY HERE, but who have already wormed their way into positions in local, state and federal governments alike. Second verse, same as the first, just with a different Invisible Man In The Sky being promoted.


VSP that was naughty changing my post..
You go on about christian fanatics taking over, at least they can be removed.Don't see many Baptists, Methodists etc leaving bombs on trains/buses or sending women and children as human bombs..check it out when was the last time a watchtower blew up in your mailbox..the west aren't the ones screaming Jihad..

[vsp]

Originally posted by be-bop
You go on about christian fanatics taking over, at least they can be removed.Don't see many Baptists, Methodists etc leaving bombs on trains/buses or sending women and children as human bombs..check it out when was the last time a watchtower blew up in your mailbox..the west aren't the ones screaming Jihad..

Nope. They're just the ones shooting abortion doctors. Or the ones calling for "a war on Islam" in general without differentiating between moderates and extremists, potential friends or foes.

They're actually more dangerous when their actions aren't violent, because more subtle actions often escape public notice. Rather than converting the country at gunpoint, they'd rather do it in the school board, in the school-textbook factory, in front of the abortion clinics, in courthouse lobbies in front of Ten Commandments plaques, or in the _legislatures_...

When there's a bill facing Congress now that would remove the Supreme Court's ability to rule on the Constitutionality of ANY religion-based issues (and would call for the impeachment of judges who dared to rule on them anyway), when it's a buddy of Pat Robertson's who crafted the bill, and when a party that's cozy with the religious right has control of the Presidency and both houses, I'D say that there's plenty of reason to worry. Wouldn't you?

Fundamentalism of _any_ denomination is a danger to the world at large, no matter what religion or creed it's devoted to. "Islamofascists" scare me a lot less than "Christofascists," because there are a hell of a lot more of the latter around trying to affect how I live _my_ life.