Girl pays price of tribal honor

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by jaguar
I think I can safely say is that the vast majority of the US has nowhere near the coffee culture of Europe.

Depends on how you look at it.

The major US cities have the little cafes where people sip lattes and watch the world pass by. Some have more than others, of course. (I'd rate our own city as "medium.")

Then you have another type of coffee culture, which occurs all over the US, at McDonalds, at restaurants and diners, everywhere. People get together (primarily older adults), sit around and drink coffee, and talk about the world in general. So I'd say it's definitely a coffee culture, just not like the Europeans.

My point entirely! That kinda of café lifestyle (and cafe latte to sell your soul for) simply does not exist, nor does the quality of coffee. Same applies here, Melbourne’s in particular has huge immigrant populations for Europe and thus we have a fantastic inner city cafe culture (which is where I spend most of my weekends). Entire plazas, little alleys full of made on the spot fresh and delicious food and the best coffee you can dream of in truly great surroundings. Live jazz in the evenings, the streets are permanently closed and full of tables, grab a group of friends and lap it up, no better way to spend a balmy evening.

Okay...this paragraph confuses me, jag. Are you saying that a cafe lifestyle does not exist here? (Which as I mentioned above, does exist.) And are you saying that the quality of coffee does not exist here as well? As far as quality of coffee, that's merely your opinion. You've never been to the States, our coffee comes from outside the States, and I really hope you're not basing your opinion on Folgers or Starbucks. And don't forget...most of coffee is water.

I don't know if you were trying to hang Nescafe on the US, but Nescafe is made by Nestle...a Swiss company. (I should know, as my stepdad has worked for them for almost 39 years. If you eat Bit-O-Honey or Laffy Taffy, it comes off his machine.)

Out of curiosity I tried starbucks, yes, it’s extremely overprice to stat with but the coffee is SHIT I cannot emphasize that enough, it was the most cruddy tasting weak POS I've ever come across. Some of the street stalls make better coffee, I thought I was drinking Nescafe for a second. In short, it’s an arrogant eyesore. It doesn't seem to be doing that well, so with any luck it'll close down sooner or later. It certainly hasn't dented the cafes, I’m not the slightest bit surprised.

I'm curious jag...what does an 8-12 ounce cup of coffee go for down there in Australia? Starbucks charges $1.80 for a 20 oz. cup. Dunkin Donuts runs about $1.50. Some of the shops on South Street run $1 and up.

Philadelphia is an interesting beast. If you ever drive through our city, you will notice that there are nowhere near as many chain places (McDonalds, Starbucks, etc.) as there are in other major cities. It was bizarre when I first moved here, but all of them seem to have a place up at Franklin Mills, so I'm covered. (I can't speak on the suburbs...maybe the chains are more prolific out there.)

To be honest jag, I doubt that Starbucks will leave Australia, especially if it begins to "localize" itself. (Like what McDonalds does...offering things that are of interest to the consumers of an area they are serving. For example, offering a McLobster sandwich in New England.) Obviously, Starbucks thinks they've found a market there in your land, and I'm sure some people are going to drink it up. If your local shops make a fine cup of joe, they probably won't have anything to worry about. Of course, when Starbucks kept putting up new stores in Chicago, the people went ballistic, and started vandalizing stores before they would open. (Now that WAS excess IMO...but apparently they figured they had a niche there.)

[jaguar]

The major US cities have the little cafes where people sip lattes and watch the world pass by. Some have more than others, of course. (I'd rate our own city as "medium.")

Been to Europe and compared? As fro quality of coffee across the Atlantic my opinion is based on the (in some cases almost violent) reactions to lack of decent coffee in America. best example I can think of is the entire crew that went with an exhibition round the US on tour with a collection of our National Gallery. I'm sure there are exceptions but is there anyone here that has lived in both who can offer an opinion? As for sitting in mcdonalds, if you think that counts you don't understand what i'm talking about by a mile.

I don't know if you were trying to hang Nescafe on the US, but Nescafe is made by Nestle...a Swiss company. (I should know, as my stepdad has worked for them for almost 39 years. If you eat Bit-O-Honey or Laffy Taffy, it comes off his machine.)

No, it’s just that Nescafe is shite coffee, i'm well aware its swiss.

I'm curious jag...what does an 8-12 ounce cup of coffee go for down there in Australia? Starbucks charges $1.80 for a 20 oz. cup. Dunkin Donuts runs about $1.50. Some of the shops on South Street run $1 and up.

ounce? Damn backward imperial measurements :p Average cup of coffee here is AU$2.50 (US$1.30). How many ounces that is I’d have no idea. More creative coffees (ice-cream, mocha, hundreds of varieties vary from place to place) can get up to AU$3 or so, but very, very rarely higher.

To be honest jag, I doubt that Starbucks will leave Australia, especially if it begins to "localize" itself. (Like what McDonalds does...offering things that are of interest to the consumers of an area they are serving.

I doubt' it'll leave too, some people who naturally go past it will probably stop by for a quick coffee but our cbd is full of little plazas full of beautiful cafes, most overlap with a business disctrict. Between that and places like degraves where I live on the weekend the majority of the population is pretty damn happy with the ways things are. Starbucks won't be able to compete with the existing culture, it’s not something a corporation like that can do. We also have hudsons coffee which I believe is American. I often go past it on the way to school, they make a reasonable triple espresso (good for hangovers and pre exam) but I wouldn’t go out of my way to get there like I would my usual haunts.

[Tobiasly]

Originally posted by jaguar
Yes, they are an evil company, yes; its very good case of cultural imperialism but most importantly it’s so goddamn arrogant. One thing (with some exceptions) I think I can safely say is that the vast majority of the US has nowhere near the coffee culture of Europe.

Sometimes I wonder if you're really trying to be funny. "Starbucks sucks because they're so arrogant. Also, they're not good enough for us upper-crust <I>real</I> coffe drinkers who know the difference between good European coffee and American swill. Of course, I've never been to America, but I have a pretty good idea."

So <I>who's</I> arrogant? I fail to see the arrogance behind trying to expand into other markets. If everyone else has your same opinion, and no one goes there, then yes, they'll close up shop. But why are you so upset about their mere presence, if, as you say, they have no chance of lasting there?

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by jaguar
Been to Europe and compared?...As for sitting in mcdonalds, if you think that counts you don't understand what i'm talking about by a mile.

I think I understand perfectly well what you are talking about.

You originally used the term "coffee culture." When you said that, I envisioned an umbrella group under which the "cafe culture" and the American variant that I mentioned are covered. As far as the "cafe" aspect, no, I haven't been to Europe, but I'd say I have a pretty good understanding of it.

Last I checked, there isn't an "official" coffee culture. And when were you last in Europe?

Hmmm...I dunno how you metric folks measure your coffee. 8 ounces (a standard cup of coffee here) is a half-pint (or about 237 mL).

Starbucks won't be able to compete with the existing culture, it’s not something a corporation like that can do.

Don't be so sure. Some lamented the arrival of Starbucks when it came to St. Louis 4 years ago. Starbucks has survived, the good coffee shops that were there before Starbucks survived. The Starbucks on South Street here in Philadelphia seems to exist peacefully with Cosi (another chain coffee shop) and the local haunts. Why? Because Starbucks offers some things the local haunts don't and vice versa. Maybe you and your crew don't like Starbucks coffee. Hey, that's cool. But I'd wager that quite a few Melburnians are going to fall in love with that coffee, or will want a Frappaccino. Your local shops will probably live long, Starbucks will live long, and it'll be one big happy-ass walk hand in hand down Main Street.

You exported Kylie Minogue, Kajagoogoo, and Crocodile Dundee...we're just returning the favor.

[Undertoad]

Well, in any case, I suspect that anti-g's real hatred of Starbucks comes from the fact that it dares not to market itself to the lower-middle-class. Sure, McDonalds is bad, but it's also kinda proletariat... if for no other reason than that the proletariat seems to enjoy eating there. But no honest worker-type would be seen in a Starbucks, or if they were there, at least they wouldn't sit down.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Undertoad
Well, in any case, I suspect that anti-g's real hatred of Starbucks comes from the fact that it dares not to market itself to the lower-middle-class. Sure, McDonalds is bad, but it's also kinda proletariat... if for no other reason than that the proletariat seems to enjoy eating there. But no honest worker-type would be seen in a Starbucks, or if they were there, at least they wouldn't sit down.

Well, the Acme at 10th and Passyunk in South Philly has a Starbucks in it. Frapps for the masses?

"Hey yo...gimme one of doze frappaccinas. You ain't gonna wooder dat down are ya? Don't buss my bawls he-yah."

[juju]

Don't you see? Starbucks has you addicts wrapped around its proverbial finger. Caffeine is a drug! And Starbucks is its Corporate Pusher!!! They're milking you for all you're worth, and then playing with your brain chemistry to force you to drink more.

Your minds are not your own. Down with coffee!! Stop corporate mind control NOW!

[elSicomoro]

Juju, you are an unAmerican Commie Pinko. I am calling the FBI field office in Little Rock as soon as I finish this.

[Undertoad]

"Aw shit, now I got maple nut scone crumbs all over my work order."

[elSicomoro]

Oh shit...my bad. Kajagoogoo are from the UK. So, substitute Silverchair for them.

[juju]

I will choose a path that's clear. I will choose freewill!

[elSicomoro]

Oh, so now you quote subversive Rush lyrics...go on, keep digging that hole, buddy.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by sycamore

Well, the Acme at 10th and Passyunk in South Philly has a Starbucks in it. Frapps for the masses?

Hardly a "real' Starbucks.

The Akammie Store in King of Prussia (proper local Fluffya pronunciation; three full syllables and may be nearly indistinguishable from the name of the famous content aggregator Akamai. The "store" may not be omitted) made space for a "Starbucks" too...even though there's a real Starbucks (that used to be an Arby's) in KoP up the road a block or two.

When will the Akammie Store Starbucks have WiFi? Not in our lifetime. :-)

[jaguar]

Bloody typical, its been really, really windy all day here, i went to reply about 5 hourws ago and between me typing and hitting reply wind damaged the ethernet line running though the roof. (socket)

You exported Kylie Minogue, (Silverchair), and Crocodile Dundee...we're just returning the favor.

ok, ok point taken.....

Sometimes I wonder if you're really trying to be funny. "Starbucks sucks because they're so arrogant. Also, they're not good enough for us upper-crust real coffee drinkers who know the difference between good European coffee and American swill. Of course, I've never been to America, but I have a pretty good idea."

So who's arrogant? I fail to see the arrogance behind trying to expand into other markets. If everyone else has your same opinion, and no one goes there, then yes, they'll close up shop. But why are you so upset about their mere presence, if, as you say, they have no chance of lasting there?

Coffee came from Europe, the best coffee still does. After god knows how long America produces the McDonalds resilient for coffee and then because its the first half decent coffee around, see UTs earlier comment, try to export it to places that have had better coffee for decades. I'm basing my opinion of the opinion of over 60 or so people that toured all over the US, and that is just one example. If I felt like it I’m sure I could collect one hell of allot more. Why am I upset? Look back, the original comment was an extension of a joke about jerry Springer. I haven’t firebombed the place yet. But its a bit like me moving into Philly and opening a cheese steak shop. While not the case here, getting back to cultural imperialism, if it is successful it kills not only local culture and local creativity built up over decades. That alone is depressing. Here it also provides an outlet for new music acts to get some airtime and the occasional gig as well as undoubtably the best place to hang out.

You originally used the term "coffee culture." When you said that, I envisioned an umbrella group under which the "cafe culture" and the American variant that I mentioned are covered. As far as the "cafe" aspect, no, I haven't been to Europe, but I'd say I have a pretty good understanding of it.

Coffee, cafe, for the purpose of this one and the same. A cafe atmosphere is as much about the surrounds as the coffee itself. Somehow McDonald just doesn't do that for me. Neither does star bucks.

I'm sure it'll survive, I’m nearly 100% sure it won't have an impact on the existing cafes, it sure as hell hasn't so far but otherwise *shrugs* just another blot on the landscape.

[Griff]

Originally posted by juju
Don't you see? Starbucks has you addicts wrapped around its proverbial finger. Caffeine is a drug! And Starbucks is its Corporate Pusher!!! They're milking you for all you're worth, and then playing with your brain chemistry to force you to drink more.

Your minds are not your own. Down with coffee!! Stop corporate mind control NOW!

Up with liquid pot er... Yerba Mate' and by extension Rush and freewill

Coffee is of African origin and the Arabs were the first to roast and brew it. So its you coffee drinkers that need to walk to your nearest TIPS informant and turn yourselves in for un-American activities.