The ethics of citizenship

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by marichiko
I'm glad for you and Lady S. that you have had such a positive experience with the folks at social security. God bless you all.

Thanks, much appreciated.

My original purpose was not to debate social/povery issues but to ask for input on what an ethical individual should do in the face of a percieved government wrong. The response from this board has been almost unanimous in the assertation that everything is wonderful here in the US and I'm just some sort of quaint hippie leftover that I would dare question anything.

It's been my experience that most (not all) people who have not experienced any type of hardship, small or large, have a lot to say against those complain about the current state of things.

Everything isn't so wonderful here, and I believe that most people *DO* believe that. But for some reason, as soon as someone "dares" to question anything, you're unpatriotic, unAmerican, ungrateful for what you have, and all that nonsense. While I've never known poverty and homelessness (and I hope to hell I never do), I have known people who have gone through such hard times, and far be it from me to tell them that they can't complain about the state of affairs in the good ol' US of A.

Well, its your country as well as mine and if you are all happy with the current state of the nation, far be it from me to argue the point further. As an earlier poster mentioned, its just a big waste of time, and I have better ways of spending my time then trying to convince a group who is not interested in what I have to say. It's been entertaining y'all. You can now go back to your self congratulatory business as usual without further comment from me.

Trust me, Sycamore is not all happy with the current state of the nation.

Just my opinion (if in the event you are still reading), if you were to continue to argue the point, you could possibly affect change *that* way (by getting people to talk about it, and maybe even changing minds). But, that's just me: you handle yourself as you see fit.

Originally posted by Troubleshooter


I answered and received nothing for it. I'm so not feeling the love.

So I'll answer again on a fuller and more personal note.

I'm currently in school for Sciology and Criminal Justice. The Sociology because it is the study of people and groups and their dynamics. The Criminal Justice is because of its focus on social rules and deviance and because it'll probably help me get a job when I'm done with school. I'm going to pursue a Master's Degree in Sociology and possibly Philosphy as well.

I'm going to learn to communicate to people how important thinking, communicating and cooperating are and how to do them.

I love you Trouble. I very much appreciated your earlier post where you gave some great quotes from the founding fathers (I like the one by Jefferson, especially). Its just that there were so many posts telling me that I was delusional that I was using up all my energy debating them. We need more thoughtful, well-informed young people like you. I wish you well in your studies, and thanks for being one of the few around here with an open mind.

Originally posted by lumberjim



crybaby.

I responded to your initial question, and you ignored that. You must be happy with the current state of your superiority o'er all of our pedantic self congratulatoryness, and prefer to act all put out and misunderstood...... Oh, boo hoo, I lost my fortune because I was too stupid to put a CO monitor in my house, Wahhh, I'm sick and I have to travel, My pussy hurts, you guys are mean, wahhh.

have a nice life. Don't let the door hit you on the ass as you leave. buh-bye. ba!.......bye! ............alrighty then, bye bye now.

Well, LJ, its your lucky day, my cold turned into a sinus infection and I had to put off my travel plans. That means I have nothing to do all day but play hardball with you big mean boys. You guys really like making assumptions, don't you? I DID have a CO detector installed by my step father. The little red "system functioning light" stayed on all the time. Unfortunately, that little light was a liar, and the CO detector was not functioning at all.

Now maybe you have so much free time and energy that you never have to prioritize your activities. Many of the rest of us do, however. Sorry, I hurt your tiny feelings by not putting a discussion with a group of ill-mannered people at the top of my list ("MY PUSSY HURTS"!? What a sophmoric, ill-mannered comment. Is that the best your great intellect can come up with?)

No, I "won't let the door hit me on the ass as I leave." Since I'm forced to stay home, I'll hang around here and be as crabby as any of you "gentlemen."

Originally posted by smoothmoniker
I'm pretty sure that brings us around to my original point.

People who think things ought to change get pissy when it turns out a lot of people disagree with them

-sm

Oh, like you never got "pissy" yourself, SM, because one single person dared to question your perceptions. I've noticed how extremely polite and well-informed you've been throughout this entire discussion. Did you ever stop to think that maybe people get "pissy" when trying to discuss things with you because of your own "pissy" response (like the use of profanity in what is supposed to be a rational discussion)?

Originally posted by ladysycamore


Trust me, Sycamore is not all happy with the current state of the nation.

Just my opinion (if in the event you are still reading), if you were to continue to argue the point, you could possibly affect change *that* way (by getting people to talk about it, and maybe even changing minds). But, that's just me: you handle yourself as you see fit.

Thank you Lady S. I do appreciate your support, and my heart goes out to you over your situation.

[lumberjim]

Well, now that you have stomped off in a huff, and stomped right back, perhaps you'll be somewhat less arrogant as we go forward.

Your welcome to stay and play, but if you keep taking your ball and leaving like that, the other kids wont want to play with you anymore.

Originally posted by lumberjim
Well, now that you have stomped off in a huff, and stomped right back, perhaps you'll be somewhat less arrogant as we go forward.

Your welcome to stay and play, but if you keep taking your ball and leaving like that, the other kids wont want to play with you anymore.

I'll be less arrogant if you all will. By the way, your first post did contain some good suggestions, and I had already started to do some of those things.

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by marichiko


Thank you Lady S. I do appreciate your support, and my heart goes out to you over your situation.

And I thank you once again.

I'm willing to give people the benefit of the doubt. You didn't seem (to me, at least) like you were trolling or trying to start trouble, but just angry over your personal situation, which no one should have to go through.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by marichiko


I love you Trouble. I very much appreciated your earlier post where you gave some great quotes from the founding fathers (I like the one by Jefferson, especially). Its just that there were so many posts telling me that I was delusional that I was using up all my energy debating them. We need more thoughtful, well-informed young people like you. I wish you well in your studies, and thanks for being one of the few around here with an open mind.

Wow, I'm young again!

WOOHOO!

[jaguar]

You'll always be an old fart to me :P

My original purpose was not to debate social/povery issues but to ask for input on what an ethical individual should do in the face of a percieved government wrong. The response from this board has been almost unanimous in the assertation that everything is wonderful here in the US and I'm just some sort of quaint hippie leftover that I would dare question anything.

There are more deserving causes in the world but since you're an American I guess they don't really matter so try finding a charity that helps the people you're so worried about and give them a wad of cash.

Originally posted by jaguar



There are more deserving causes in the world but since you're an American I guess they don't really matter so try finding a charity that helps the people you're so worried about and give them a wad of cash.

More deserving causes than what? And is it YOUR belief that "since you're an American I guess they really don't matter"? I never stated any such thing. There are all sorts of very troubling things going on in both this nation and globally. I would assume that you would agree with that, although what troubles you might not trouble me and vice versa.

Are you saying that the only way to effect change is to throw wads of cash? Isn't that treating the symptom, rather than trying to find a cure to prevent the problem from happening in the first place? I think your suggestion could be considered fiscally irresponsible by some people.

And frankly, I lack the capacity to go out and solve global problems. I'm not supergirl. Dealing with what's going on in my own backyard is hard enough.

[jaguar]

In my opinion, poverty is america, even as you describe has sweet fuck all on the way some people live. My experience has taught me to assume Americans are myopic as they come unless proven otherwise.

Giving money to charities so they can help the most disadvantaged is fiscally irresponsible and treating the symptom not the cause? What the fuck do you want to do? Change human nature? Shit happens and people end up at the bottom of the heap, they need a hand back up and charities can help do that. Fiscally irresponsible? How the fuck is it fiscally irresponsible? If you want to be fiscally responsible buy a few shares in a mutual fund. Helping people isn't fiscally responsible.

I personally give a fair amount to the causes I care about, they tend to be very specific if they involve people. That money goes directly to affecting the issues I care about. That's my best way of helping right now.

Originally posted by jaguar
In my opinion, poverty is america, even as you describe has sweet fuck all on the way some people live. My experience has taught me to assume Americans are myopic as they come unless proven otherwise.

Giving money to charities so they can help the most disadvantaged is fiscally irresponsible and treating the symptom not the cause? What the fuck do you want to do? Change human nature? Shit happens and people end up at the bottom of the heap, they need a hand back up and charities can help do that. Fiscally irresponsible? How the fuck is it fiscally irresponsible? If you want to be fiscally responsible buy a few shares in a mutual fund. Helping people isn't fiscally responsible.

Poverty IS america? I assume you mean IN America. I reject your argument that just because this nation's poor are better off (supposedly) than the poor of some other nations that we don't need to be concerned with poverty in America. Its a bit like saying "Who cares that this guy has only one arm? Look at the person over there who's missing an arm and both legs!" especially when its concievable that you could help the man with one arm, but far more difficult to help the second since he lives 10,000 miles and an ocean away.

Americans ARE myopic. Have you ever traveled to a Third World Country? I have. Yes, we Americans are comparitively lucky. I have also traveled to various European countries which actually have a higher standard of living than does the US and provide all their citizens with health care as the US does not. From the perspective of a Swiss citizen, America is a barbaric place. Its all point of view and many Americans lack in perspective. You are right on that.

It is my personal experience that had I simply been given access to health care when I finally found out what had happened to me, I could have undergone treatment and voc rehab and gotten on my feet a long time ago. As it was, I had to subsist on charitable handouts and inadequate government subsidies which ended up costing everybody, taxpayers included, far more than what it would have cost to just give me a little medical attention in the first place. I WANTED to go back to work, but no one would give me the medical help I needed to do this.

So just WHAT are you saying in your last paragraph? "... they need a hand back up and charities can help do that...Helping people isn't fiscally responsible." Huh?

[jaguar]

I'm swiss, british and australian. I've lived in all 3. I've been to Malaysia, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, China, Indonesia in SE Asia alone. I'm not talking the tourist routes either. Don't try and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm changing for a career in financial analysis to photojournalism, I'm spending the rest of this year wandering some of the most godawful hellholes this planet has to offer.

You were the one who said something about helping people being fiscally irresponsible, not me. I found the idea farcical. You said yourself you survived on charitable handouts, surely they were kinda useful? Why not give back?

I pick my causes based on what I feel are the most pressing situations and issues, I don't feel poverty in America is, ever was, or ever will be anywhere near the most important.

Thirdly it's equally easy to help both, there are many charities that help people the world over all of which are equally accessible. Hell, jump on a website, enter your CC details and you've done your good deed for the day.

Also, you don't add up. How the hell does one go from having a personal secretary, which implies a fairly impressive job title, to abject poverty. Concept of saving and investment never enter your consciousness?

I did meen In but in retrospect there was something freudian about that.

Originally posted by jaguar
I'm swiss, british and australian. I've lived in all 3. I've been to Malaysia, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, China, Indonesia in SE Asia alone. I'm not talking the tourist routes either. Don't try and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.

You were the one who said something about helping people being fiscally irresponsible, not me. I found the idea farcical. You said yourself you survived on charitable handouts, surely they were kinda useful? Why not give back?

I pick my causes based on what I feel are the most pressing situations and issues, I don't feel poverty in America is, ever was, or ever will be anywhere near the most important.

Also, you don't add up. How the hell does one go from having a personal secretary, which implies a fairly impressive job title, to abject poverty. Concept of saving and investment never enter your consciousness?

I did meen In but in retrospect there was something freudian about that.

I never said you didn't know what you are talking about. In fact, I agreed with you when you said that Americans are myopic. Why are you getting so defensive?

What I said is that throwing wads of money at a problem is not always the answer; that SOME people would consider that fiscally irresponsible. Certainly, many charities do fine work, and I am not trying to tell you which ones you should contribute to - that's a matter of personal conscience. In my case, I am simply looking for ways to solve root causes. This is my way of "giving back," trying to find ways so others won't have to go through what I did.

If you'd go back and read my post where I explained what happened to me, I mentioned that I spent 3 years becoming more and more incapacitated and that for the last year before I discovered what was wrong, I had no longer been able to work. I then spent a frustrating year trying to get back into the work place without medical treatment. After that I finally resigned myself to asking for government help. It took 4 years to get it. Sure, I had savings and investments. I had enough to last me 4 years with no money coming in. Most Americans don't even have that much in reserve. The final two years with no money were far from easy.

You said your heritage is part Swiss. So is mine. My family came from the Entlebuch area outside Luzern. Do you mind me asking which part of Switzerland your relatives came from?