frightening flight experience - Page 5

Kitsune · 07-22-2004, 09:23 PM

In this line of thinking, I have some other suggestions.

Students that attend High School that wear black clothing and listen to rock music should be subject to searches before they enter class. After all, as a nation, we cannot endure any more school shootings and to save our children, we must take note of those that are the most likely to be involved in such an activity.

African Americans, when pulled over for speeding, should automatically be subect to probable cause searches despite lack of it. They are, after all, statistically the most likely to be carrying an illegal substance or weapon in the vehicle.

In order to make security lines move faster at the airport, I suggest we have lines labeled "Dark-Skinned" and "Light-Skinned". Since very few people can tell the difference between someone from Greece, an Indian, and an Arab, everyone with dark skin should expect to arrive at the airport 2 hours prior to their flight and expect much more intense security checks than the rest. For the safety of the pilot and the aircraft, we should probably make all of them sit in the rear of the plane.

Sound familiar?

xoxoxoBruce · 07-22-2004, 09:26 PM

Did you read the link or just the quote?

Quote:

"The FAMS never broke their cover, but monitored" the activity, Mr. Adams said. "Given the facts, they had no legal basis to take an enforcement action. But there was enough of a suspicious nature for the FAMS, passengers and crew to take notice."

Well the "Little Miss" wasn't brewing it up in her mind if the Federal Air Marshalls, other passengers and crew also noticed. The article cited other INSTANCES.

jane_says · 07-22-2004, 09:57 PM

I read the whole sordid many-paged piece of barf days ago. And what I want to know is why, if they were so suspicious, they were not questioned BEFORE THE FLIGHT OOK OFF. People "noticing" does not, hasn't ever, and WON'T equal another group of people doing anything wrong. Also, failure to follow up on their "story" says to me that whatever they were doing did not warrant them being harrassed any further by airport security, air marshalls or anyone else. It doesn't prove they were up to no good; rather the opposite.

Instances of what, I ask again? Instances of people freaking out over having to share the same space with "undesirables"? Unless they are instances of something actually taking place, rather than some imaginary wrongs committed against gunshy racists, I fail to see the problem.

jane_says · 07-22-2004, 09:59 PM

Reread the part you yourself quoted above. Specifically "given the facts".

Clodfobble · 07-22-2004, 10:06 PM

And what I want to know is why, if they were so suspicious, they were not questioned BEFORE THE FLIGHT OOK OFF.

They specifically addressed this in the article. It is because the (politically correct) quota says they may only question 2 men of Middle Eastern descent, and no more. If they had questioned 2 of them, they would have lost the right to further investigate ANYTHING about the other 12. So they waited for something more concrete to go on.

jane_says · 07-22-2004, 10:12 PM

And again, it didn't. I can't for the life of me understand why this article has gotten the attention it has on news sites, conservative radio shows and the like - it was a non-event.
Further, since no problems have arisen over the enforcement of this politically correct quota, it appears to be perfectly reasonable.

xoxoxoBruce · 07-22-2004, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jane_says

Reread the part you yourself quoted above. Specifically "given the facts".

That's right, the Air Marshalls don't interfere with people without cause. But they are there to watch for people acting suspiciously. That's their job, that's what they did.
Hey, go fly a plane. :p

jane_says · 07-22-2004, 10:14 PM

I'm sure you'll forgive me if I fail to take this woman's word for gospel. She also quoted Anne Coulter in the article, and anything I heard from her would also have to come from the mouth of Jesus before I'd believe it.

As my sainted grandfather used to say, "A piece of paper will lie still and let you write anything you want on it".

bluesdave · 07-22-2004, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jane_says

And again, it didn't. I can't for the life of me understand why this article has gotten the attention it has on news sites, conservative radio shows and the like - it was a non-event.

You wouldn't think so if you had been on the plane, yourself. It must have been absolutely terrifying. I hate discrimination too, but if I had been on the plane I would have been hoping that the air marshals would lock the whole 14 up in chains! It's all well and good to take the high road, sitting in our comfortable offices, and homes, but just think about what it was like for those passengers.

Kitsune · 07-22-2004, 11:55 PM

I hate discrimination too, but if I had been on the plane I would have been hoping that the air marshals would lock the whole 14 up in chains!

Nothing like letting our fears get in the way of other peoples' rights. (yeah, yeah, these guys were Syrians... Syrians don't have rights in the US, etc, etc)

These guys weren't even charged with interfering with a flight crew. They weren't charged with anything. The plane's crew and FAMs acted appropiately. I'm with Jane_Says. What's the big deal?

We're still a really nervous nation, it seems.

A woman on a plane got scared and wrote an article about it. Terrifying, but I'm sure she'll live. And here I thought all of our irrational reactions to fear instilled by the media were beginning to subside. The suggestions made in the article, and by others, seemed logical at first. "It would be stupid to ignore the obvious." "We can't be concerned with hurting other people's feelings." But after reading through some of Jane_Says' posts and thinking about the suggestions I've read, I've come to realize that the proposal of "searching everyone looks like an Arab" and "treating Arabs on airplanes as potential terrorists" is racism, pure and simple. The arguments had me going for awhile, but when you boil it down that's all this is: You're taking a group of people and subjecting them to treatment based solely on their appearance and, I think, that would be wrong. Either make security equal for everyone, or don't mess with it at all. Hurting feelings has nothing to do with this, but subjecting people to extra security based on a stereotype and hyped-up fear is wrong and, as a US citizen, I feel that I have the right to walk into an airport and not be singled out based on my race. I also expect the same treatment when boarding a bus, riding a train, attending a sporting event, or walking down the street. I tend to hope that every citizen would expect that. And while everyone hates the analogy that this is like locking up the Japanese during WWII, its the same thing: irrational fears leading to the mistreatment of and removal of rights for innocent US citizens based on their lineage.

Stop, take a deep breath. The Arab next to you might look scary, but they're probably not going to try to hurt anyone. Honest.

bluesdave · 07-23-2004, 12:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitsune

These guys weren't even charged with interfering with a flight crew. They weren't charged with anything. The plane's crew and FAMs acted appropiately. I'm with Jane_Says. What's the big deal?

The deal is that they acted suspiciously; they weren't just sitting quietly in their seats, sipping coffee and reading a magazine. Sure, the fact that they were Syrians added to the passengers' anxiety, but I'm sure if the same set of events had occurred, but with 14 Anglo Saxons instead, there would still have been a considerable degree of alarm generated by their actions.

Don't forget that Annie's account of the flight was corroborated by the flight crew and other passengers. There is no doubt that her story is accurate.

There is also no doubt that the Syrians' behaviour on the plane was very odd if indeed they were just innocent musicians. What sort of plausible reason could anyone put forward to explain their actions? I hate to sound like a conservative, but the story does ring alarm bells. If Annie had not been supported by other accounts, then yes, you could dismiss the whole thing as alarmist trash, but this is not the case!

triestemoi · 07-23-2004, 12:37 AM

I agree Dave! When was the last flight any of you were on when people of any color behaved in those ways? Groups congregating by the bathrooms? A group of 8 (?) getting up to use the rest room as soon as the captain announced the descent? This is odd behavior on an airplane! It deserves to be thought of as suspicious.

wolf · 07-23-2004, 12:59 AM

OC, why are you suddenly Navy? (if this is addressed elsewhere, excuse me, but this is the first thread I read, and it , well, surprised me a lot)

Clodfobble · 07-23-2004, 08:09 AM

Further, since no problems have arisen over the enforcement of this politically correct quota, it appears to be perfectly reasonable.

This statement only cements further for me my belief that you didn't actually read the article, you got to the Anne Coulter quote, got pissed off and stopped. They talk about THIS in the article too--YES, problems HAVE arisen over the enforcement of this policy, two airlines were fined in the realm of 250 to 500,000 dollars for questioning more than 2 Middle Eastern men when more than two of them were acting suspicious. The airline did what they felt they needed to do to be safe, and they were fined heavily for it. I suppose if you're saying no additional planes have been hijacked, I guess you're right, but then again if there were, none of the crew would survive to tell you, "You know, we knew something was going on, and we really wanted to question some of the men who were acting very strangely, but the quota wouldn't let us." Is that what has to happen in your mind, the quota must be proven to have tragically failed us before we can say it's wrong?

Kitsune · 07-23-2004, 08:14 AM

Don't forget that Annie's account of the flight was corroborated by the flight crew and other passengers. There is no doubt that her story is accurate.

I missed the other accounts. I'd be curious to read them to see other peoples' takes on the events.

There is also no doubt that the Syrians' behaviour on the plane was very odd if indeed they were just innocent musicians. What sort of plausible reason could anyone put forward to explain their actions? I hate to sound like a conservative, but the story does ring alarm bells.

It rings alarm bells for me, too, but nothing came of it. I would have been very nervous on the flight, too, but the reactions suggested in the article concerning security changes over such a non-incident are far reaching and unneeded. No one died, no one was arrested, no one was charged with anything.

Groups congregating by the bathrooms?

During my flight last month, this happened. You're not supposed to form a line or stand around near the fore restroom, either, but people still did it. It happened throughout the entire flight because we had a full 737.

A group of 8 (?) getting up to use the rest room as soon as the captain announced the descent?

It sounds really strange when you read it in the article, but it was a normal occurance on both my departing and arriving flights out of Tampa. Everyone was sitting calmly, the captain announces that he's beginning descent, and suddenly everyone and their brother on board realizes that this is their last chance to go to the bathroom before they have to sit and wait during landing. Lines formed at both fore and aft, flight attendants got irritated, people were told to sit down and fasten their seat belts. How many of them listened and followed the instructions? Not a one: there was bladder pressure priority. It makes much more sense to me that everyone got up after the decent announcement than just doing it during a random part of the flight.

07-23-2004, 12:59 AM	#73
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	OC, why are you suddenly Navy? (if this is addressed elsewhere, excuse me, but this is the first thread I read, and it , well, surprised me a lot) __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

07-22-2004, 09:23 PM	#61
Kitsune still eats dirt Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,031	In this line of thinking, I have some other suggestions. Students that attend High School that wear black clothing and listen to rock music should be subject to searches before they enter class. After all, as a nation, we cannot endure any more school shootings and to save our children, we must take note of those that are the most likely to be involved in such an activity. African Americans, when pulled over for speeding, should automatically be subect to probable cause searches despite lack of it. They are, after all, statistically the most likely to be carrying an illegal substance or weapon in the vehicle. In order to make security lines move faster at the airport, I suggest we have lines labeled "Dark-Skinned" and "Light-Skinned". Since very few people can tell the difference between someone from Greece, an Indian, and an Arab, everyone with dark skin should expect to arrive at the airport 2 hours prior to their flight and expect much more intense security checks than the rest. For the safety of the pilot and the aircraft, we should probably make all of them sit in the rear of the plane. Sound familiar?

07-22-2004, 09:57 PM	#63
jane_says Colonist Extraordinaire Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: SW VA Posts: 200	I read the whole sordid many-paged piece of barf days ago. And what I want to know is why, if they were so suspicious, they were not questioned BEFORE THE FLIGHT OOK OFF. People "noticing" does not, hasn't ever, and WON'T equal another group of people doing anything wrong. Also, failure to follow up on their "story" says to me that whatever they were doing did not warrant them being harrassed any further by airport security, air marshalls or anyone else. It doesn't prove they were up to no good; rather the opposite. Instances of what, I ask again? Instances of people freaking out over having to share the same space with "undesirables"? Unless they are instances of something actually taking place, rather than some imaginary wrongs committed against gunshy racists, I fail to see the problem.

07-22-2004, 09:59 PM	#64
jane_says Colonist Extraordinaire Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: SW VA Posts: 200	Reread the part you yourself quoted above. Specifically "given the facts".

07-22-2004, 10:06 PM	#65
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	And what I want to know is why, if they were so suspicious, they were not questioned BEFORE THE FLIGHT OOK OFF. They specifically addressed this in the article. It is because the (politically correct) quota says they may only question 2 men of Middle Eastern descent, and no more. If they had questioned 2 of them, they would have lost the right to further investigate ANYTHING about the other 12. So they waited for something more concrete to go on.

07-22-2004, 10:12 PM	#66
jane_says Colonist Extraordinaire Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: SW VA Posts: 200	And again, it didn't. I can't for the life of me understand why this article has gotten the attention it has on news sites, conservative radio shows and the like - it was a non-event. Further, since no problems have arisen over the enforcement of this politically correct quota, it appears to be perfectly reasonable.

07-22-2004, 10:14 PM	#68
jane_says Colonist Extraordinaire Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: SW VA Posts: 200	I'm sure you'll forgive me if I fail to take this woman's word for gospel. She also quoted Anne Coulter in the article, and anything I heard from her would also have to come from the mouth of Jesus before I'd believe it. As my sainted grandfather used to say, "A piece of paper will lie still and let you write anything you want on it".

07-22-2004, 11:55 PM	#70
Kitsune still eats dirt Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,031	I hate discrimination too, but if I had been on the plane I would have been hoping that the air marshals would lock the whole 14 up in chains! Nothing like letting our fears get in the way of other peoples' rights. (yeah, yeah, these guys were Syrians... Syrians don't have rights in the US, etc, etc) These guys weren't even charged with interfering with a flight crew. They weren't charged with anything. The plane's crew and FAMs acted appropiately. I'm with Jane_Says. What's the big deal? We're still a really nervous nation, it seems. A woman on a plane got scared and wrote an article about it. Terrifying, but I'm sure she'll live. And here I thought all of our irrational reactions to fear instilled by the media were beginning to subside. The suggestions made in the article, and by others, seemed logical at first. "It would be stupid to ignore the obvious." "We can't be concerned with hurting other people's feelings." But after reading through some of Jane_Says' posts and thinking about the suggestions I've read, I've come to realize that the proposal of "searching everyone looks like an Arab" and "treating Arabs on airplanes as potential terrorists" is racism, pure and simple. The arguments had me going for awhile, but when you boil it down that's all this is: You're taking a group of people and subjecting them to treatment based solely on their appearance and, I think, that would be wrong. Either make security equal for everyone, or don't mess with it at all. Hurting feelings has nothing to do with this, but subjecting people to extra security based on a stereotype and hyped-up fear is wrong and, as a US citizen, I feel that I have the right to walk into an airport and not be singled out based on my race. I also expect the same treatment when boarding a bus, riding a train, attending a sporting event, or walking down the street. I tend to hope that every citizen would expect that. And while everyone hates the analogy that this is like locking up the Japanese during WWII, its the same thing: irrational fears leading to the mistreatment of and removal of rights for innocent US citizens based on their lineage. Stop, take a deep breath. The Arab next to you might look scary, but they're probably not going to try to hurt anyone. Honest.

07-23-2004, 12:37 AM	#72
triestemoi Civil Civilian Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Northwest Posts: 33	I agree Dave! When was the last flight any of you were on when people of any color behaved in those ways? Groups congregating by the bathrooms? A group of 8 (?) getting up to use the rest room as soon as the captain announced the descent? This is odd behavior on an airplane! It deserves to be thought of as suspicious.

07-23-2004, 08:09 AM	#74
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	Further, since no problems have arisen over the enforcement of this politically correct quota, it appears to be perfectly reasonable. This statement only cements further for me my belief that you didn't actually read the article, you got to the Anne Coulter quote, got pissed off and stopped. They talk about THIS in the article too--YES, problems HAVE arisen over the enforcement of this policy, two airlines were fined in the realm of 250 to 500,000 dollars for questioning more than 2 Middle Eastern men when more than two of them were acting suspicious. The airline did what they felt they needed to do to be safe, and they were fined heavily for it. I suppose if you're saying no additional planes have been hijacked, I guess you're right, but then again if there were, none of the crew would survive to tell you, "You know, we knew something was going on, and we really wanted to question some of the men who were acting very strangely, but the quota wouldn't let us." Is that what has to happen in your mind, the quota must be proven to have tragically failed us before we can say it's wrong?

07-23-2004, 08:14 AM	#75
Kitsune still eats dirt Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 3,031	Don't forget that Annie's account of the flight was corroborated by the flight crew and other passengers. There is no doubt that her story is accurate. I missed the other accounts. I'd be curious to read them to see other peoples' takes on the events. There is also no doubt that the Syrians' behaviour on the plane was very odd if indeed they were just innocent musicians. What sort of plausible reason could anyone put forward to explain their actions? I hate to sound like a conservative, but the story does ring alarm bells. It rings alarm bells for me, too, but nothing came of it. I would have been very nervous on the flight, too, but the reactions suggested in the article concerning security changes over such a non-incident are far reaching and unneeded. No one died, no one was arrested, no one was charged with anything. Groups congregating by the bathrooms? During my flight last month, this happened. You're not supposed to form a line or stand around near the fore restroom, either, but people still did it. It happened throughout the entire flight because we had a full 737. A group of 8 (?) getting up to use the rest room as soon as the captain announced the descent? It sounds really strange when you read it in the article, but it was a normal occurance on both my departing and arriving flights out of Tampa. Everyone was sitting calmly, the captain announces that he's beginning descent, and suddenly everyone and their brother on board realizes that this is their last chance to go to the bathroom before they have to sit and wait during landing. Lines formed at both fore and aft, flight attendants got irritated, people were told to sit down and fasten their seat belts. How many of them listened and followed the instructions? Not a one: there was bladder pressure priority. It makes much more sense to me that everyone got up after the decent announcement than just doing it during a random part of the flight.

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