Has our intelligence dropped to zero already?

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by glatt

P.S. If any teacher laid a hand on my kids, they would feel what it is like to be hit themselves.

Now that's not the answer. Instead, reasonably explain to them that...

oh nevermind. you just killed your argument, is all.



I'm not talking about beating a kid, and I'm not talking about using it as retribution. I'm not talking about causing pain -- at least, not lasting pain. I'm talking about getting the attention of someone who has turned into a fire-breathing, tantrum-throwing monster and won't stop. I'm glad you never had to swat your kids, but believe me, there are no vital organs located in the buttocks, and they will survive.

Furthermore, you can see from the video what not disciplining a child does for them.


edit #2: dang, now you have *me* all worked up too. Glatt, surely you're not saying that anyone who dares spank a child is doing it for some kind of power trip? That the parent who spanks is teaching violence? Not at my house. When it happened to us, we knew exactly why, and knew that it was just (except for one time, where I took the heat for my brother over something. But that was me being nice).

touchy-feely new age bullshit is poisoning the world.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by glatt

P.S. If any teacher laid a hand on my kids, they would feel what it is like to be hit themselves.

This is why the rule is in effect, and when talking, cajoling and bribing doesn't work, call parents, and when they don't come, there is one recourse: to call police.

Once the police arrived, it was no longer the school's problem.
Don't be pissed at the school because the police cuffed the child.

[glatt]

I'm sorry I mentioned that bit about what I would do to a teacher who hit my kid. I'm not sorry because I take it back, I'm sorry because you latched on to it and missed the rest of my post. There's a difference between adults and kids. I have no responsibility to teach discipline to adults, so I'll use violence on them if I need to. Plus, they are the same size as me, so it's a fair fight.

Furthermore, you can see from the video what not disciplining a child does for them.

We are in agreement there. The only problem is that to you, discipline=hitting. To me, discipline=discipline.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by glatt

The only problem is that to you, discipline=hitting. To me, discipline=discipline.

Mmm...

Can you smell ideology and the over-simplification? I can...

[mrnoodle]

Originally Posted by glatt

I'm sorry I mentioned that bit about what I would do to a teacher who hit my kid. I'm not sorry because I take it back, I'm sorry because you latched on to it and missed the rest of my post.

I got the rest of the post. And for most cases, spanking is NOT the answer. But it most definitely IS the answer for some cases. My parents were very loving people (still are) who would gladly have given their lives for any of us. But your post essentially lumps them into one of three groups: child abusers, ignorant cretins, or lazy parents. And I call bullshit. Our discipline ranged anywhere from lectures to repayment of debts to grounding to the occasional swat on the butt when we needed it to get our attention. The idea that "all spanking is wrong, and only teaches that might makes right" is naive pop-psychology claptrap. If you are an adult who throws a fit in front of a police officer and he/she hits you with pepper spray, explain to them that they are sending you the wrong message about violence, and I'm sure they won't do it anymore. Sheesh.

We are in agreement there. The only problem is that to you, discipline=hitting. To me, discipline=discipline.

wrong again. see above. I'm sure you love your kids very much, and I know you're completely sincere. But so am I.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by glatt

I'm sorry I mentioned that bit about what I would do to a teacher who hit my kid. I'm not sorry because I take it back, I'm sorry because you latched on to it and missed the rest of my post.

I didn't miss the rest of the post.

There's a difference between adults and kids. I have no responsibility to teach discipline to adults, so I'll use violence on them if I need to.

Which still teaches your children that might makes right, and violence is ok if it's adult violent to an adult.

Plus, they are the same size as me, so it's a fair fight.

So, if it's ok adult to adult, and size to size, then child to child is ok?

Either "violence isn't the answer" or "violence is ok sometimes". Can't have it both ways. Do as I say, not as I do?

We are in agreement there. The only problem is that to you, discipline=hitting. To me, discipline=discipline.

No, to me, hitting= I've tried everything else and you still didn't get it, so let me get your attention.

[lookout123]

all children and all parents are different. i would challenge (and place bets) on you spending one month with my son with your anti-swatting stance. my son is a very good child, he is not a brat or an animal in any way. he is also very smart. too smart for his own good anyway.

we tried the non-physical discipline route in the beginning. what we have found is that when he disobeys in a more-or-less unintentional way, time outs, toy restrictions, etc. work.

more often when my son gets in trouble, he knows exactly what he is doing and knows there will be consequences.
---time out? ha! he laughs and will fall asleep with his head against the wall.
---take away a favored toy? HAfuckingHA! after i did that he went to his room and one by one brought out ALL of his favorite toys. i asked why and his response was that I could take those because he is going to keep doing ____. until then i thought steam coming out of one's ears was only for the cartoons.
---take away his activities such as soccer and gymnastics? he retorts with - "good i was too tired anyway".
---lecture and discussion? nope, he'll just sit there with a tear in the corner of his eye, and a nasty little grin on his face for as long as i take - no big deal.
---Carrots rather than sticks? nope - the toy he wanted more than anything??? he said he didn't need it if it meant doing what he was told.

---i sting his little ass? he stops. right then and there. the tears aren't really from physical pain, but from the realization that he crossed the line. AND THEN we add on one of the other methods.

he won't even be 4 until June and this is his personality. this aspect of his personality is from his mom. i lived in fear of my father's justice (not abuse). my wife is exactly like him though. her parents just laugh. i do want to reiterate that he is generally a VERY good boy. but boys will be boys.

not every child responds to thoughtful discussions, timeouts, groundings, etc.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by OnyxCougar

Either "violence isn't the answer" or "violence is ok sometimes". Can't have it both ways. Do as I say, not as I do?

OK, you win. I take it back about hitting the teacher. I've never hit another person in my adult life, and I don't believe in violence. I was being dramatic.

mrnoodle, it's nice to see you backpedaling a bit too, and talking about other ways of disciplining besides hitting. I may have misread it, but your post at 12:24 about "hysterical school boards," "anti-discipline advocates," "adults who are terrified to do anything to [unruly kids] for fear of lawsuits," and that "time-out" fail "100% of the time" seemed to advocate hitting as the answer to all these problems. You seemed to be saying that if teachers were allowed to hit students, that would go a long way toward solving the problem of misbehaving students. Perhaps I read too much into that post. Your most recent post, where you say "And for most cases, spanking is NOT the answer." is much more reasonable, and is one I wouldn't have taken issue with.

I understand some parents think spanking is OK. My own parents spanked me from time to time, and I turned out OK. I would never support a ban on parents being able to spank their kids, regardless of my own parenting methods.

Teachers spanking kids is another story. I never witnessed any teachers ever hitting a kid when I was a student in the 70s and 80s. That was 30 years ago, so it's not some new Liberal conspiracy of weak-kneed school boards. Perhaps my schools were different. Teachers shouldn't have that "tool." There are plenty of other tools at their disposal.

[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by lookout123

all children and all parents are different. i would challenge (and place bets) on you spending one month with my son with your anti-swatting stance. my son is a very good child, he is not a brat or an animal in any way. he is also very smart. too smart for his own good anyway.

we tried the non-physical discipline route in the beginning. what we have found is that when he disobeys in a more-or-less unintentional way, time outs, toy restrictions, etc. work.

more often when my son gets in trouble, he knows exactly what he is doing and knows there will be consequences.
---time out? ha! he laughs and will fall asleep with his head against the wall.
---take away a favored toy? HAfuckingHA! after i did that he went to his room and one by one brought out ALL of his favorite toys. i asked why and his response was that I could take those because he is going to keep doing ____. until then i thought steam coming out of one's ears was only for the cartoons.
---take away his activities such as soccer and gymnastics? he retorts with - "good i was too tired anyway".
---lecture and discussion? nope, he'll just sit there with a tear in the corner of his eye, and a nasty little grin on his face for as long as i take - no big deal.
---Carrots rather than sticks? nope - the toy he wanted more than anything??? he said he didn't need it if it meant doing what he was told.

---i sting his little ass? he stops. right then and there. the tears aren't really from physical pain, but from the realization that he crossed the line. AND THEN we add on one of the other methods.

he won't even be 4 until June and this is his personality. this aspect of his personality is from his mom. i lived in fear of my father's justice (not abuse). my wife is exactly like him though. her parents just laugh. i do want to reiterate that he is generally a VERY good boy. but boys will be boys.

not every child responds to thoughtful discussions, timeouts, groundings, etc.

Damn, dude. That's a headstrong child. Good luck to you and Mrs. Lookout.

[dar512]

Our rule of thumb was that spanking was reserved for willful disobedience. I've only had to spank my kids maybe ten times. But my kids aren't that bull-headed.

Catwoman - timeouts are very good for their intended purpose - to get a kid to calm down and take a deep breath. Having a kid stand in a corner for 1/2 hour is not a timeout. It is physical punishment of a different sort.

[dar512]

Originally Posted by glatt

Teachers shouldn't have that "tool." There are plenty of other tools at their disposal.

Like what? I'm not advocating teachers spanking here. I want to know what you think teachers should do when a child is disrupting the classroom and will not stop.

In our kids' school the teachers only have to threaten kids with a PN (parental notification - note to the parents). That settles 'em right down. But we live in an area where the kids learn discipline at home. Plus, my kids go to a private school. They have the ultimate weapon - they can kick the kid out. Public schools don't have that.

[mrnoodle]

It's nice that we found at least some common ground on this, but I still think the reason why so many kids are out of control in school is because they've outlawed the paddle. I support the outlawing, but ONLY because the caliber of many teachers today is about as pathetic as the caliber of student. The ones that arent' getting pregnant by their charges are truly abusive in other ways (of course the majority aren't that bad, but you see the trend every day)

I told a story here one time about my dad's experience teaching high school (maybe it was jr. high) shop class to a bunch of cornfed football players. They had run out the previous teachers and were trying to do so to my dad. Long story short, one day he had enough. When they came in the next day, having openly defied his instruction to clean up the shop after use, he gave them a choice: leave my classroom now and never come back (bonus: meeting with the parents to explain why) or stay and take your medicine. One kid left, and was later expelled (the story is much deeper than just not cleaning up after class). After the kid left, dad shut the door, removed the Belt of Justice, and lined 'em up. Each got a thwack or two, all yelled. Some cried. None ever crossed him again, and he says they were his best class ever after that.

Only one parent complained: the father of the kid who walked out. Not a single other parent complained, and several called the principal to SUPPORT what had happened. The football coaches were amazed at the new attitude these kids showed.

My dad didn't do it out of anger, didn't do it to show that might makes right (in fact, a couple of those kids could've taken him in a one-on-one fight. He was only 5'9" and 150# or so). He explained what was going to happen, why it was happening, gave them the choice, and administered the discipline. This happened in 1961, I think -- it was his first teaching job after getting his masters' after the Navy.

I admit that approach wouldn't work today. The kids would be more likely to pull a gun or knife than take a spanking, and they might have already spent time in jail. The other teachers would file a complaint, the principal would lose his/her job, every talk show in the world would provide wall-to-wall coverage, and at some point he would be accused of a hate crime, if one of em was gay or black or something.

So, yeah. call the cops. It's the only option they have left when things get out of control.

[lookout123]

i'll be thirty-one in a few days so i grew up in public schools in the '80s. my grade school still had a wooden paddle that was used pretty damn frequently.

a pattern that i recognized as a child and i focus on now is that the kids who got in trouble at school, generally, were the ones who had no fear of retribution from home. they would act out, disrespect the teacher and eventually get sent to the office. Mr Sperry, cranky old drunk that he was, would take the wood to their butts and that was it for them.

those of us that didn't get sent to the office didn't behave out of some fear of that paddle. it was our parents. i knew (as did most of my friends) that if i got into big enough trouble that the principal used the paddle, then my parents would get the phone call - and that is when the real trouble kicked in.

I wasn't abused in any way, but i knew that my parents would be disappointed in me. (i had conscience enough to not like that), but also that my dad may take a physical discipline route, a lecture, grounding, etc. it was consistant, harsh, and effective.

today, the school can't do anything because if the kids get in trouble or aren't doing well in class, it must be the teachers' fault or some other kids. there is very little personal accountability for these kids anymore. there are no consequences to their actions. kids aren't any different today than they were 20 or 30 years ago - the parents are different. the parents do not teach the children any respect for authority. without respect for authority, forget about discipline. without discipline kiss any hopes for healthy, well-adjusted children right out the window.

that is why my kid is already in a private school. not because we are snobs (i hate the idea of private schools and ridiculed private school kids when i was a public school kid.) but because i get to choose a school that maintains discipline in a way i support. they choose their students based on interviews, not zip codes or economic situations(sizeable scholarships for volunteer work). the parents have real money invested in their child's education and work with the teachers for REAL accountability for the kids.

[glatt]

I'm surprised your school had a paddle that recently. My parents' schools supposedly had them in the 40's. I hadn't heard of them since then.

Originally Posted by lookout123

today, the school can't do anything because if the kids get in trouble or aren't doing well in class, it must be the teachers' fault or some other kids. there is very little personal accountability for these kids anymore. there are no consequences to their actions. kids aren't any different today than they were 20 or 30 years ago - the parents are different. the parents do not teach the children any respect for authority. without respect for authority, forget about discipline. without discipline kiss any hopes for healthy, well-adjusted children right out the window.

Agreed.

[Trilby]

I've never spanked my boys...however, I have waved the .45 around in a menacing manner....seriously, though...wolf is dead right. Shoulda been called on a psych emergency and then everybody would've been