09-08-2009, 08:28 PM | #91 |
Come on, cat.
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It varies by state Dana. Here's Oklahoma's process though (came up first in google)
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09-08-2009, 08:30 PM | #92 | ||
We have to go back, Kate!
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Oh heck, this is worrying:
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I know from my own country's use of an appeals process in asylum decisions how fraught that can be and hhow easily barriers can be placed on the process. For example: a second appeal on an asylum decision can only be brought if 'new' evidence is available. Which means that evidence that has been seen and summarily and unfairly/disingenuously dismissed cannot be reviewed. Prior to that law being passed, it was very common for asylum cases to fall at the first and second hearings and pass on the third, when it was heard at a higher level. Which suggests that the first and second hearings were often faulty decisions. Actually I should fact check that. It may be that the first appeal now requires 'new evidence' I know that was in the pipeline. Particularly concerning after a parliamentary commission found that the Home Office asylum system (which deals with the initial hearings) had 'a kafkaesque culture of disbelief'. So when good evidence is routinely dismissed and has to go through two and three appeals to be taken seriously, our response was to make it virtually impossible to get to that second and third appeal and allow the initial poor reading of the evidence to stand. Fuck. Now I've drifted into a topic I really feel angry about. I know so many people who've been unfairly denied asylum, and whose cases have been dismissed despite very clear physical evidence of torture and brutality. I know several (one of whom was a volunteer who worked with mum) who've been refused and deported back to their country of origin only to vanish suspected of being imprisoned or killed; two we actually know were killed. So...I don't trust 'appeals systems' as a true safeguard against miscarriages of justice. I know only too well how they can be skewed against actual usefulness.
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09-08-2009, 08:32 PM | #93 |
Come on, cat.
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Why?
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09-08-2009, 08:34 PM | #94 |
changed his status to single
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Present me with the facts of a case where an innocent person was executed. Together we can go through the details on how the system failed and you can change my viewpoint.
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09-08-2009, 08:53 PM | #95 | |
We have to go back, Kate!
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Sorry Jinx, I went back and added some stuff. Didn;t think anyone had posted in the meantime, and got carried away as I got onto a subject that's a bit of a sore one for me
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09-08-2009, 09:06 PM | #97 | |||
We have to go back, Kate!
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Interestingly, on the wiki page that shows overturned convictions where the death penalty has been passed, there are no posthumous examples given for the USA. There are however, a number of cases where the death penalty has already been commuted and the person is serving a life sentence. One of these was overturned 9 years after he was convicted when new DNA evidence which was not available at the time of his conviction showed he coulld not have committed the crime. Had his sentence not been commuted, there is a good possibility he;d already have been executed by the time DNA evidence was available. There are several such cases of people whose sentence had previously been commuted to life sentences and then later were cleared by new evidence. It wuold be interesting to find out how many appeals are either sought or granted after execution has been carried out. What I can point you to is a few examples of convictions where the death penalty has been carried out and where serious doubts as to the safety of the convictions have been raised. The site is partisan, but some of the testimonial evidence from people involved in the trials is fairly disturbing. Including jury members and witnesses for the prosecution: http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/exec...sibly-innocent Here's one example from the list: Quote:
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09-08-2009, 09:07 PM | #98 | |
Come on, cat.
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09-08-2009, 09:29 PM | #99 | ||
We have to go back, Kate!
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*chuckles* no. But don't have an irreversable sentence. I am not arguing against laws. I am arguing against capital punishment. Political situations change. Views on race and class change. Standards of evidence change, as do types of evidence as new techniques are developed.
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The man who was cleared of a crime 9 years after he was convicted because of new DNA evidence was released. The new evidence was because of scientific advances during that 9 year period. The point I was making about appeals, is that they are not a gurantee that someone wrongly convicted will get a fairer hearing. Nor are they a guarantee that they won;t. There are many deathrow convicts whose cases are heard and whose convictions are overturned on appeal. But...we don;t know how many people are wrongly executed. So no, I am not arguing against having laws. Nor am I saying that removing the death penalty removes the potential for miscarriages of justice: clearly it doesnt. There will no doubt be people who will unfairly serve long sentences for crimes they did not commit. People who fall through the gaps in the system: all justice systems are flawed, because all rely on us, flawed human beings. But where miscarriages are discovered the wrongly imprisoned can be released, the wrongly executed cannot be revived. And, we are less likely to discover the miscarriage once the victim of that miscarriage is executed. Whilst they remain alive and incarcerated there is an impetus for the legal system to review new evidence as and when it arises, or as and when the political winds change direction.
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09-08-2009, 09:55 PM | #100 |
Come on, cat.
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Ya, that's a good argument Dana...
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09-08-2009, 10:11 PM | #101 | ||
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Additional evidence at the time of his executive that suggested the initial arson investigation was flawed. And now, more compelling evidence of a wrongful conviction. At the very least, serious doubt. You can NEVER undue a wrongful execution. The system failed. A system based on punishing the worst of the worst should never fail those similarly charged but where the facts are in doubt from the very start. Putting the morality of the death penalty aside with the understanding that morality is subjective, a system of justice should never be based on the worst case but rather on preventing the miscarriage of justice for any case. Last edited by Redux; 09-08-2009 at 10:29 PM. |
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09-08-2009, 11:12 PM | #102 |
Snowflake
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I would like to hear the arguments FOR the death penalty.
Considering that we all damn well know that any human institution is prone to glitches and imperfections, what is the payoff that society receives in exchange for granting our government the power to take a human life? What are the benefits?
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09-09-2009, 07:22 AM | #103 | |
whatever
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I'm a little late on this comment but....
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I have a nephew who had shit for parents, now he has a small son and he's a great father. He's determined to be better than what he saw / experienced growing up. So lots of folks do decide to go an entirely opposite route....we all do have choice....(unless, of course, we're completely deranged...!) |
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09-09-2009, 08:16 AM | #104 | |
barely disguised asshole, keeper of all that is holy.
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I would like to note that the number of federal death row inmates was infantecimally small. But as we all know, even one is too many. To add to Redux's post. The problem with this is we cannot nor will we ever be able to legislate morality.
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09-09-2009, 08:56 AM | #105 | |
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