Professor Gates, Harvard's Pride

[Aliantha]

Cops don't deserve to be given attitude just because they're doing their job.

For that matter, no one who's just doing their job should have to put up with attitude.

I wonder how much saliva from wait staff Mr Gates has consumed in his time.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

It's been my experience--and countless others'--that if you are polite to the cops, things go smoothly even if you're in the wrong, and if you're a dick to the cops, you may expect it to go badly for you no matter what. Anyone who still doesn't understand this basic reality after 50-60 years on this planet deserves what they get.

I don't believe that we should accept that cops are wild animals as "basic reality".

[Aliantha]

They're not wild animals, they're just people, who don't get paid enough to put up with the crap they cop from some of the arseholes out there.

eta: bold and underlining. My point is they're not robots. They go out of their way to help people in trouble and perform heroic deeds every day (as a group of people) so why shouldn't they be shown the respect they're due for putting their lives on the line constantly?

[Happy Monkey]

If we see them as people, then why do I see so many "don't poke the bear" style responses?

It may be a good idea not to mouth off to cops, but that doesn't render anything they do any more acceptible.

It reminds me of people who say that a girl deserves what she gets if she walks through a shady neighborhood wearing a short skirt.

[Aliantha]

I don't see them as 'don't poke the bear' responses, but it's just a metaphor anyway. Being people means they don't have unlimited tollerance for dickheads.

I don't think anything the cop did was unacceptable. The man refused to comply and the cop can only assume the worst or he could get shot or stabbed or worse if he decides to take the 'suspects' word, and I think that's the key in this case. The man was a suspect until he proved his identity, but by then he'd already committed a misdemeanor making him the fair recipient of his subsequent treatment.

Nope, I have no sympathy for people who treat cops like crap. I think they do deserve what they get.

As to the short skirt reference, well, I have some thoughts on that, but it's another discussion entirely.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

It reminds me of people who say that a girl deserves what she gets if she walks through a shady neighborhood wearing a short skirt.

"Deserves what she gets" is a little harsher when we're talking (presumably) about rape rather than spending a few hours under arrest. And while no one ever deserves rape, my own daughter will be expected to use her brain and take responsibility for the situations she chooses to put herself in.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

I don't believe that we should accept that cops are wild animals as "basic reality".

Following standard procedures to ensure their own safety and the effectiveness of their job is the exact opposite of acting like wild animals. They aren't just pulling this shit out of their ass on the fly as you seem to think.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

It may be a good idea not to mouth off to cops, but that doesn't render anything they do any more acceptible.

No anything they do, just the stuff they do correctly (like not taking some dude's word for it that he didn't just break into the house the cop was dispatched to check on) Cops get in trouble/sued all the time, especially if they don't follow procedure.

[Shawnee123]

I was just watching a clip of the "made for TV" movie A Cry For Help. Of course it's a very sensationalized account of the cop's response, but it pointed out, to me, what jinx just said. In this movie, the cop responded to a domestic violence case BADLY. This case led to a law in Connecticut about treating DV like any other violent crime: follow procedure.

Police Officers are trained in exactly what to do in unknown situations. To NOT follow the protocol that has been developed after years of advancement in all aspects of our society is to beg for lawsuits when you "guessed" wrong and didn't follow procedure.

I'm not saying there aren't abuses, as with anything. However, how hard is it, when you know you're where you're supposed to be, to just explain the situation? There is time when indignation is warranted. This was not one of those times.

eta: the movie was about Tracey Thurman.

As you may know, Tracey Thurman's case is an exception to the legal system's ambivalence toward domestic assault. In 1984 Tracey Thurman sued the City of Torrington, Connecticut, and 24 of its police officers for their failure to arrest her violent and estranged husband, Charles "Buck" Thurman. According to the suit, Charles had repeatedly assaulted and threatened to kill Tracey. The final incident took place on June 10, 1983, when Charles stabbed Tracey in the chest, neck, and throat with a knife 10 minutes after she had called police. According to the suit, one police officer arrived at the scene 25 minutes after the call was made, and that officer did nothing to stop Charles from kicking Tracey in the head.

Tracey Thurman alleged that by following a policy of not arresting abusive husbands or boyfriends, Torrington police failed to provide the same protection for abused wives and children as they provided for victims of similar assaults outside a domestic relationship. In a landmark decision the court agreed, ruling that officers could indeed be held accountable for violating the rights of battered women. The court awarded Tracey Thurman $2.3 million in compensatory damages. Quickly following this court decision, Connecticut adopted a more comprehensive domestic violence law. In the twelve months after the new law took effect, the number of domestic violence assaults reported increased by 92 percent.

From here.

Sorry for the tangent.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Aliantha

The man was a suspect until he proved his identity, but by then he'd already committed a misdemeanor making him the fair recipient of his subsequent treatment.

No he hadn't.

Originally Posted by jinx

No anything they do, just the stuff they do correctly (like not taking some dude's word for it that he didn't just break into the house the cop was dispatched to check on) Cops get in trouble/sued all the time, especially if they don't follow procedure.

Nobody's saying they should have taken the guy's word, but once the guy's word was corroborated, the cop should have left.

[depmats]

So you are still maintaining the position he was arrested because of his ability/inability to prove his identity? The man was arrested for not cooperating with police. If you are cock to a cop who is following correct procedures you had better plan for your day to go downhill. That seems pretty damn simple to understand. Or maybe you think Gates was arrested because the cop was a white jackass and the professor was a poor, oppressed black man just trying to make his way in this brutal world. Of course, you'd be wrong but maybe that is what you think.

[jinx]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

No he hadn't.Nobody's saying they should have taken the guy's word, but once the guy's word was corroborated, the cop should have left.

He behaved in a manor that led the cop to believe further investigation was warranted. Why was he so agitated and confrontational when the cop was just there to do his job, of protecting the professor's property?
If you get pulled over for speeding but behave in a manner that leads the cop to think you're drunk, he's not going to just leave after he writes your ticket - he's going to investigate further.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

If we see them as people, then why do I see so many "don't poke the bear" style responses?

It may be a good idea not to mouth off to cops, but that doesn't render anything they do any more acceptible.

It reminds me of people who say that a girl deserves what she gets if she walks through a shady neighborhood wearing a short skirt.

I've lived in a small town and a bad urban area and there is a HUGE difference on how cops hold themselves and the relations that follow.

The first and largest difference I noticed is that cops protect some neighborhoods and control others. For example, in my old neighborhood, I've had police pull out guns on me for a potential speeding ticket, have pulled guns out on some of my friends monthly for looking "suspicious", and have taken 40 minutes to respond when someone tried to break into my apartment.

There are many reasons why cops act like that, some justified and some not, but it is putting up with that type of mentality that causes such hate towards cops, especially in the African American community. When the police force feels more like a foreign occupying force who obviously don't give a shit about you then neighbors potentially risking their lives to protect their community, a rebellious nature cannot be surprising.

My theory is that besides the natural corruptness that comes with a job that holds power over the rest of society, is that most rookie police officers do not try to become racist asshole LAPD wannabes, but they are tired of putting up (I can relate with this as well) with many civilians that act rebelliously because of past experiences with other cops along with exposure to older cops. Its really a cause and effect spiral that has been out of control for some time.

The teenagers act the way they do because of teenage rebellion and police behavior, and in response the police act like assholes because of this and corruptness, and then the population responds and etc.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by depmats

So you are still maintaining the position he was arrested because of his ability/inability to prove his identity?

Obviously not. He proved his identity, and the cop arrested him anyway. At which point, he should have been gone, and there woud be nobody for Gates to be a cock to.

The man was arrested for not cooperating with police.

In effect, but not legally. He wasn't charged with obstruction or disobeying a lawful order. Presumably because he did, in fact, provide the ID. He was arrested for being disorderly. In his own home.

If you are cock to a cop who is following correct procedures you had better plan for your day to go downhill. That seems pretty damn simple to understand.

Don't poke the bear. It's pretty simple to understand, and good advice. But it absolves the bear.

[OnyxCougar]

This is how I see this whole situation with Gates:

The police responded to a call regarding a possible break in.

The police (eventually) verified the suspects as the resident.

At that point their job (investigating a B&E) was done at that residence and they should have left.
- - - -
Notice I left out things that are irrelevant, namely: race and ass-hattery of participants.

Gates was in his own yard, exercising his first amendment rights. By definition, that cannot be illegal. You don't have to like or agree with what he says or how he says it.