Toyota stop sale

[tw]

Originally Posted by jinx

"Can't be reproduced" is what they always say to me the first time something fucks up in my jeep. I don't think they try very hard.

From someone who clearly has expensive experience solving problems: most difficult part is getting someone to tell the truth or who simply know only because they 'feel'.

NPR's Car Talk (Klick and Klack - the tappet brothers - Tom and Ray) constantly ask this question on their show. Is the check engine light on? Most everyone cannot bother to tell them that *critical* fact. Routine is for so many users to withhold critical information because the *know* it is not important. Or simply know advice is wrong because they 'feel'. Is that person emotional or logical? That unanswered question makes problem solving most difficult.

Your computer problem - in my very first reply, execute the manufacturer's comprehensive hardware diagnostic. Since you did not like it, then you all but insulted me. What was wrong with your computer? Apparently it is failing again because that diagnostics was not executed; to see the problem before it caused complications. Despite generations of experience with computers and disk drives, instead you knew I must be wrong? 318 posts later, that problem still exist? Just another example of what Toyota is going through.

All who solve problems confront this 'the' most difficult part of solving problems. Even the TV show House identifies it: "Everyone lies". What makes solving problems most difficult? Why are these Toyota problems so hard to diagnosis. Because so many people do as you did with me. Entertain feelings and biases rather than deal with and provide facts.

To only complicate it further, the San Diego driver apparently was trying to scam Toyota. Accelerating and then applying brakes - both extremely hard - well over 250 times. Being obnoxious, then Dr House deserves high praise. Because so many routinely lie.

In Audis, drivers just 'knew' they were hitting the brakes. Finally a video tape from Consumers Reports(?) showed exactly what was happening. The driver that 'knew' he was pressing the brake was pressing the accelerator to the floor. Again, what makes problem solving so difficult? Humans who know only because they feel - and therefore lie or deny.

Ford Explorers murdering people because Firestone Tire lied for years at the highest levels of management. Now call themselves Bridgestone so that you will protect and encourage them. How many died simply because Firestone (Bridgestone) lies to everyone for years - so that the problem need not be solved. So that more will die. In every case, the most difficult part to a solution is humans who lie or who know better than others. Who entertain their feelings rather then get nasty and therefore respect facts.

Unfortunately too many need spin rather than the nastiness that attacks the only enemy - the unknown. Too many worry about themselves rather than honesty and reality. So, who is lying?

[classicman]

So what you are saying is that in EVERY single case, the drivers would have to be doing the EXACT same thing EVERY SINGLE time.

That is a great way to solve a problem in a controlled environment, but it doesn't work that way in the real world. People are not robots and they don't all behave the same way every time. They have different strengths, personalities and driving habits.
To attempt to make some sort of assertion that every one of these people had to do the exact same thing as every other one is ludicrous.

Are they all lying or do they really not know and are trying to remember as best they can? Are they making assumptions? Well I always do this, therefore thats what happened that day... When in reality they may have done something different and do not know or realize it.

[jinx]

Your computer problem - in my very first reply, execute the manufacturer's comprehensive hardware diagnostic. Since you did not like it, then you all but insulted me.

Who are you talking to? You quoted me, but I never insulted you. Your 'help' consisted of telling me that I bought the wrong brand of laptop, and what I needed to fix it didn't exist. That's not help, that's just being an asshole (oh! there's that insult you were looking for), nothing you said was helpful. Trying to say "I told you so" at this point is just retarded.

From someone who clearly has expensive experience solving problems:

What the hell are you talking about? My jeep is under warranty and nothing has been spent yet on the vaio. Buying a new hard drive isn't gonna break the bank.

Clearly, you think you know, but you just don't know.

[tw]

Originally Posted by jinx

Your 'help' consisted of telling me that I bought the wrong brand of laptop, and what I needed to fix it didn't exist.

Another and perfect example of Toyota's problem. I never said any of that. But jinx has somehow concluded things not stated.

Stated: more responsible computer manufacturers provide comprehensive hardware diagnostics - for free. If the manufacturer is less responsible, then a diagnostic must be downloaded from the disk drive manufacturer.

How does a less responsible computer manufacturer somehow become 'the wrong brand'? It doesn't if reading only what was posted.

How does 'download diagnostic from the disk drive manufacturer' become "didn't exist"? Same disk drive diagnostic was later discovered also on the same Ultimate Boot CD web site. A failing disk could have been identified at the start if following proper diagnostic protocol. But the biggest problem is always a human.

Demonstrated again is Toyota's biggest problem. And why facts must be 'filtered' through a communications major - must be 'politically correct' rather than 'technically honest'. Too many people only hear what they want to hear (apply emotions to every statement) rather than work only with the facts.

As people get older, they just know 'hidden messages' exist where none do. This compounds into propaganda, myths, and outright lies. Just another reason why the most difficult problem in addressing problems is a wild card - the human. And Toyota's most complicated issue to a technical solution.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by tw

Stated: more responsible computer manufacturers provide comprehensive hardware diagnostics - for free. If the manufacturer is less responsible, then a diagnostic must be downloaded from the disk drive manufacturer.

Some advice from an ex-communications major: Sentence number one is irrelevant. If you start with irrelevant advice, no one will bother listening long enough to get to the relevant advice. Sentence number two is convoluted and over-generalized. Might as well have said, "You have a problem? Download some stuff to fix it." Actual advice involves specifics, such as "Go to [this link] and download [this specific program.]" You may have every bit as much knowledge on this topic as Mitch does, but we'll never know, because you're not effectively communicating it. Communication skills are important, no matter how much you want to pretend they're just "emotions."

[lumberjim]

that's my whole thing.

i said 'speak fucking english!@'
but I meant what clobble said

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by jx

You quoted me, but I never insulted you.

Originally Posted by tw

As people get older, they just know 'hidden messages' exist where none do.

*honk honk*

[ZenGum]

I nominate Clodfobble's post for Hall of Fame... anyone seconding?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Some advice from an ex-communications major: Sentence number one is irrelevant. If you start with irrelevant advice, no one will bother listening long enough to get to the relevant advice. Sentence number two is convoluted and over-generalized.

Maybe you have completely missed the point. Jinx's reply is only a example of the topic which is why sentence one also is so relevant:
> Another and perfect example of Toyota's problem.

Meanwhile, specific links were provided in that other discussion. They could not have not been clearer - with multiple choices. Get diagnostics from the hard drive, from the provided CD-Rom, from the Sony web site, or from the disk drive manufacturer. In each case, specific links. And multiple options to make it even easier.

I have no idea what you are saying about "Go to [this link]... " because that is exactly what I did. And because that is not the topic. The topic is how humans make solutoions so complex. Or in this case, if the links are not clear, the ask for clarity.

Bottom line - you seem to think why jinx intentionally ignored me is the topic? It never was. It was a perfect example of the point. I provided 'right on' accurate procedures to identify a suspect and solution. And the only reason it was not followed is the most difficult obstruction to technical solutions - humans. Is this a discussion of that computer failure? Obviously not. And I keep saying it here for good reason. This was (and that is why the first sentence is relevant - why do you not see that?) a discusson of why Toyota's problems are made so more difficult.

I could not make the point clearer - in the very first sentence. And repeated it in the last sentence. "And Toyota's most complicated issue to a technical solution." How much clearer could I be?

[classicman]

85% of all problems are communication errors...

[TheMercenary]

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by tw

Bottom line - you seem to think why jinx intentionally ignored me is the topic? It never was.

Baloney. When you bring it up, it becomes the topic:

Originally Posted by tw

Your computer problem - in my very first reply, execute the manufacturer's comprehensive hardware diagnostic.

Originally Posted by tw

I have no idea what you are saying about "Go to [this link]... " because that is exactly what I did.

I know you know what a link is, because you frequently link to other threads in the cellar. A link is underlined, and when you click on it, it goes to a different site. You did not provide a link, you provided an instruction to go somewhere (the manufacturer's website.) Manufacturers do not put major, clear links to their diagnostic tools on their main page, thus your instructions are useless.

Originally Posted by tw

Or in this case, if the links are not clear, the ask for clarity.

Lumberjim said to you:

Originally Posted by lumberjim

I assume the diagnostics are on a partition of that like they are on my HP. If I can't see the hard drive, how can I run those self diagnostics?

And you did not reply. Later, you came back and told jinx

Originally Posted by tw

Much of what you just went through would be solved (learned) immediately by the diagnostic. And again, it has at least three sources - on the hard drive, on a CD-Rom, and from the manufacturer web site. If it does not exist, well, you now appreciate why I only recommend computer that provide those diagnostics.

Translation: "Go look for this thing you don't know how to recognize. It might not be there. And if it's not, your computer sucks." Again, useless advice.

When lumberjim said, "fuck, speak english, man," your reply was "Like I said. The most difficult part of the problem is not hardware."

Originally Posted by tw

Everything here is written at a layman’s level. If it has useful information, then do what I always do to understand anything - read it three or more times. If you read something the first time and understand it, then it probably has near zero useful facts.

The fact of the matter is, you don't want to communicate better. Which is your prerogative. But don't be surprised when people ignore you, and instead take advice from people who do somehow manage to provide useful facts in simple sentences that can be understood the first time you read them.

[jinx]

Yeah, that pretty well sums it up...

New hard drive arrives tomorrow. Thanks to mb and jim, my old data has been saved. Happy ending.

[classicman]

I again bow to the almighty Clodfobble.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

Translation: "Go look for this thing you don't know how to recognize. It might not be there. And if it's not, your computer sucks."

Simple and honest response is, "I cannot find these normally easy things to find. Please help." Instead "fuck" was posted in reply. Which demonstrates my point. Imagine Toyota's frustration when they too are dealing with people who cannot even do simple things such as ask for clarification. Who instead reply with profanity.

Where is any word that even approaches 'sucks'? None. You invented it. If thinking like wackoman, then everything is only black or white. If 'not good', then it can only 'suck'? You said that.

OK. Consumer Reports only recommends maybe 14% of the cars. According to that wackoextremist reasoning, then Consumer Reports says 85% of all cars "suck"? That is what you have posted. Can I quote you?

Some computers suck and some computers are recommended. Then is the category that extremists must refuse to understand - a third category. In an extremist's world only "good and evil", "black and white", "recommend and suck" exist. Why are you endorsing extremism? Or are you playing games taught to communication majors?

You are (I suspect) intentionally demonstrating the problem and my original point. Toyota would be suffering this same problem due to humans doing what you have just done. Humans doing what you just did are exactly why technical solutions can be so difficult. Also demonstrated by other examples such as the check engine light, House who says, "everyone lies", San Diego Prius driver, Audis, and Firestone tires.

Imagine Toyota's frustration when they make recommendations and you reply with 'sucks' or 'fuck' interpretations. When people cannot bother to ask a simple logical question, "I don't understand". Instead only reply with "fuck, talk English man". That is always the major impediment to solving a problem.

In lumberjim's case the obviously simple topmost paragraph would have identified the problem immediately. Solution obvious. It was not done only because he did not do it; instead replied with profanity.

Humans are the greatest impediment to solving problems. Amazing how 'not recommended' gets perverted into 'suck' especially when thinking as an extremists - everything is only "black or white". Another example of why humans are a major impediment to solving problems.

Meanwhile, when one does not understand what a disk drive, CDrom, or web site is, then a civil person ask probing questions - not profanity. It demonstrated perfectly the problem Toyota must be confronting.