3/30/2006: Wildfires melt metal sign, kill livestock - Page 2

zippyt · 03-30-2006, 11:10 PM

I think it may be plastic as well .

Sad thing about the critters

chrisinhouston · 03-31-2006, 07:12 AM

If those images bring you down, click on the Scenery link- http://www.txfb.org/scenery.asp , It has some real nice Chamber of Commerce type pics. I like the piggies and the baby goats!

I lived through some wildfires in southern California and remember watching a wall of fire sweeping up one end of a canyon only to reach the end and come down the other side. Breathtaking!

VinDurzle · 03-31-2006, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

All the other metal is steel (iron) which would require 2500 to 3000 degrees F.
I should think plastic would have burned, but you could be right.

Im with you there mr B... plastic would simply cease to exist under the kind of temps produced by such a fire. Also, plastic would not support its own weight when extruded in the manner of the material in the photograph...Its been a little while since I joined (apologies Brianna for the strop over the Afghanis) but just to say (to Undertoad?) good work! Always enjoy IOTD

glatt · 03-31-2006, 08:28 AM

I hadn't thought about it, but looking back at the image again, I think the sign is clearly plastic. The sign post has two cross members to support the sign. This would be consistent with posting a plastic sign, which would need more support to keep from flexing in the wind. Think of every aluminum stop sign you've ever seen. There are always two holes on a ceter post holding the thing up. Cross braces are rarely used for a metal sign this size.

Now look down at the ground behind the fence. There is an unbroken glass bottle. Everyone knows that glass breaks in a hot fire. It didn't break.

Now look over to the bushes here and there. They are charred, yes, but not incinerated. If the fire was hot enough to melt aluminum, those bushes would not be there any longer.

I think this fire was hot, but not super hot. It was hot enough to melt the plastic sign, but not hot enough to ignite it. I've seen pictures on the net of a Saturn that was parked close to a building that burned down. The body panels are all melted and droppy, just like this sign. Of course I couldn't find a picture now to show you, but I did find this melted vinyl siding picture.

VinDurzle · 03-31-2006, 08:56 AM

Hmmm you could be onto summt Glatt...I would argue your points...many small ali signs have cross members to aid installation whereas many plastic signs are a cheap alternative, often fixed through the face and not supported with ali thus increasing the costs to a level that you might as well have ali in the first place...Glass will become extremely fragile under extreme heat but not break unless a force is applied. A bottle can sit in a fire an not break. It will melt if the fir is hot enough. It wont break unless corked/capped and expanding air breaks it or it is hit in some manner...and finally...the heat of a fire can be localised, scorching some plantlife, wiping out others but hey! Im no expert. The real clue here for anyone who cares would be the text still on the sign...that cetainly couldnt withstand the heat needed to melt ali, whether it was lead paint, vinyl graphics or anything else...so...plastic it is.

Trilby · 03-31-2006, 09:52 AM

Sometimes the friday IotD is disturbing. This is one of those times. I love animals. I hate to see this sort of thing.

Dagney · 03-31-2006, 10:14 AM

Psst..Bri? This was Thursday's IoTD...disturbing none the less, but the Friday Critter Pictures are generally...happier.

jinx · 03-31-2006, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VinDurzle

A bottle can sit in a fire an not break. It will melt if the fir is hot enough. It wont break unless corked/capped and expanding air breaks it or it is hit in some manner

My experience with camping and drinking is that a bottle, when placed in the hot coals of a fire, will very slowly melt over the course of the evening. It breaks only when its drunken owner tries to clumsily retrieve it - or when it is actually removed from the coals and immediately placed on a cold rock. Therefore, the sign is obviously aluminum.

CharlieG · 03-31-2006, 10:48 AM

I suspect plastic too. Aluminium, when it melts, tends to oxidize really quickly unless you either put it in an innert atmosphere, or you have enough bulk that the dross on the top keeps the 02 from the bulk of the Al. In other words, it would turn to a white brittle powder pretty quickly

Heck - not hard to demonstrate what happens - drink a can of your favorite beverage that comes in an Al can - go to your BBQ, and build a fire around the empty can - look at what happens

zippyt · 03-31-2006, 05:20 PM

Jinx - I have melted a few bottles as well , you have to make the fire right , in a good glass melting fire an AL can will simply go AWAY QUICKLY , but a bottle MUSt be heated evenly or it will crack ,
Once camping a friend and I cracked open a 1/5 of GoldSchloger and lit the fire at the same time , when the bottle was empty the fire was RIGHT ( so were we

) , we melted that THICK bottle into a pool of moltent glass , but when my friend fell in the river , ,,
well the wifes put us both to bed , the next morning there was this blob of glass with a few gold felcks in it ,

barefoot serpent · 03-31-2006, 05:52 PM

OK, yer all wrong... the sign *was* fiberglass

so EMOFWB!

zippyt · 03-31-2006, 10:13 PM

the sign *was* fiberglass

No WAY !!! Fglas would have burned and fallen apart , not melted and streched in the wind .
Please site your sources . ( yeppers , I'm call'n you out!!! )

xoxoxoBruce · 03-31-2006, 11:38 PM

DAMIFINO. When I first looked at the picture, I thought it was plastic, but the website said metal. They were there, so I accepted it was metal and deduced it would have to aluminum if it were indeed metal.

The fire could have been considerably hotter along the fence line because of increased vegetation that naturally grows there.

Thin aluminum like a can will indeed turn white but I've melted thicker pieces with a torch and it just sat there and did nothing until it suddenly became liquid, no warning, with a paper thin "skin" over it. The "skin" was not thick enough to keep it from flowing.

Also an aluminum can is a different alloy than a sign would be made from and aluminum age hardens just hanging around.

I agree the lettering surviving is odd but that could be due to the rapid heating or the coloring being absorbed by the "skin".

Besides, as we all know, Texans never lie.

Wombat · 04-02-2006, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kitsune

I had no idea grass fires got hot enough to melt a sign like that, or was this also a very impressively windy day (hence, the fabric-like appearance of it) as well?

The Canberra fire on 18 January 2003 did more than that: in Kambah, where it was "only" a grass fire, it melted steel Colorbond fence panels. Houses were reduced to a thin layer of ash on a concrete slab: even the ovens, bathtubs, fridges etc had melted and flowed away.

davistud · 04-04-2006, 10:51 AM

I vote for Plastic or Fiberglass as there appears to be light coming THROUGH the material at the upper right bolt and also along the long strand. Can't be reflected light as the angle of the adjacent pieces is wrong for the angle of the sun. Light would not go through metal this thick. Goes through very thin gold sheets I hear though.

03-30-2006, 11:10 PM	#16
zippyt LONG LIVE KING ZIPPY! per Feetz Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Arkansas Posts: 7,661	I think it may be plastic as well . Sad thing about the critters __________________ "Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. " Brother Dave Gardner

03-31-2006, 08:28 AM	#19
glatt ™ Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Arlington, VA Posts: 27,717	I hadn't thought about it, but looking back at the image again, I think the sign is clearly plastic. The sign post has two cross members to support the sign. This would be consistent with posting a plastic sign, which would need more support to keep from flexing in the wind. Think of every aluminum stop sign you've ever seen. There are always two holes on a ceter post holding the thing up. Cross braces are rarely used for a metal sign this size. Now look down at the ground behind the fence. There is an unbroken glass bottle. Everyone knows that glass breaks in a hot fire. It didn't break. Now look over to the bushes here and there. They are charred, yes, but not incinerated. If the fire was hot enough to melt aluminum, those bushes would not be there any longer. I think this fire was hot, but not super hot. It was hot enough to melt the plastic sign, but not hot enough to ignite it. I've seen pictures on the net of a Saturn that was parked close to a building that burned down. The body panels are all melted and droppy, just like this sign. Of course I couldn't find a picture now to show you, but I did find this melted vinyl siding picture. Last edited by glatt; 03-31-2006 at 09:08 AM.

03-31-2006, 09:52 AM	#21
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	Sometimes the friday IotD is disturbing. This is one of those times. I love animals. I hate to see this sort of thing. __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

03-31-2006, 10:14 AM	#22
Dagney The Prodigal Brat Returneth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: North Cackalacky Posts: 1,107	Psst..Bri? This was Thursday's IoTD...disturbing none the less, but the Friday Critter Pictures are generally...happier. __________________ The Constitution gives every American the right to make a total fool out of himself. But that doesn't mean you need to.

03-31-2006, 05:20 PM	#25
zippyt LONG LIVE KING ZIPPY! per Feetz Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Arkansas Posts: 7,661	Jinx - I have melted a few bottles as well , you have to make the fire right , in a good glass melting fire an AL can will simply go AWAY QUICKLY , but a bottle MUSt be heated evenly or it will crack , Once camping a friend and I cracked open a 1/5 of GoldSchloger and lit the fire at the same time , when the bottle was empty the fire was RIGHT ( so were we ) , we melted that THICK bottle into a pool of moltent glass , but when my friend fell in the river , ,, well the wifes put us both to bed , the next morning there was this blob of glass with a few gold felcks in it , __________________ "Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. " Brother Dave Gardner

03-31-2006, 07:12 AM	#17
chrisinhouston Professor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Houston TX Posts: 1,857	If those images bring you down, click on the Scenery link- http://www.txfb.org/scenery.asp , It has some real nice Chamber of Commerce type pics. I like the piggies and the baby goats! I lived through some wildfires in southern California and remember watching a wall of fire sweeping up one end of a canyon only to reach the end and come down the other side. Breathtaking!

03-31-2006, 08:56 AM	#20
VinDurzle no excuse for being obtuse Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: UK Posts: 14	Hmmm you could be onto summt Glatt...I would argue your points...many small ali signs have cross members to aid installation whereas many plastic signs are a cheap alternative, often fixed through the face and not supported with ali thus increasing the costs to a level that you might as well have ali in the first place...Glass will become extremely fragile under extreme heat but not break unless a force is applied. A bottle can sit in a fire an not break. It will melt if the fir is hot enough. It wont break unless corked/capped and expanding air breaks it or it is hit in some manner...and finally...the heat of a fire can be localised, scorching some plantlife, wiping out others but hey! Im no expert. The real clue here for anyone who cares would be the text still on the sign...that cetainly couldnt withstand the heat needed to melt ali, whether it was lead paint, vinyl graphics or anything else...so...plastic it is.

03-31-2006, 10:48 AM	#24
CharlieG Hoodoo Guru Join Date: May 2001 Posts: 301	I suspect plastic too. Aluminium, when it melts, tends to oxidize really quickly unless you either put it in an innert atmosphere, or you have enough bulk that the dross on the top keeps the 02 from the bulk of the Al. In other words, it would turn to a white brittle powder pretty quickly Heck - not hard to demonstrate what happens - drink a can of your favorite beverage that comes in an Al can - go to your BBQ, and build a fire around the empty can - look at what happens

03-31-2006, 05:52 PM	#26
barefoot serpent go ahead, abbrev. it Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Lawrence, KS Posts: 2,623	OK, yer all wrong... the sign was fiberglass so EMOFWB!

03-31-2006, 10:13 PM	#27
zippyt LONG LIVE KING ZIPPY! per Feetz Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Arkansas Posts: 7,661	the sign was* fiberglass* No WAY !!! Fglas would have burned and fallen apart , not melted and streched in the wind . Please site your sources . ( yeppers , I'm call'n you out!!! ) __________________ "Success is getting what you want. Happiness is wanting what you get. " Brother Dave Gardner

03-31-2006, 11:38 PM	#28
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	DAMIFINO. When I first looked at the picture, I thought it was plastic, but the website said metal. They were there, so I accepted it was metal and deduced it would have to aluminum if it were indeed metal. The fire could have been considerably hotter along the fence line because of increased vegetation that naturally grows there. Thin aluminum like a can will indeed turn white but I've melted thicker pieces with a torch and it just sat there and did nothing until it suddenly became liquid, no warning, with a paper thin "skin" over it. The "skin" was not thick enough to keep it from flowing. Also an aluminum can is a different alloy than a sign would be made from and aluminum age hardens just hanging around. I agree the lettering surviving is odd but that could be due to the rapid heating or the coloring being absorbed by the "skin". Besides, as we all know, Texans never lie. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

04-04-2006, 10:51 AM	#30
davistud Person Who Has Posted Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Denton, TX Posts: 2	I vote for Plastic or Fiberglass as there appears to be light coming THROUGH the material at the upper right bolt and also along the long strand. Can't be reflected light as the angle of the adjacent pieces is wrong for the angle of the sun. Light would not go through metal this thick. Goes through very thin gold sheets I hear though.

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