questions about "pagan"? religion/s

Archer · 06-22-2004, 12:29 AM

If pagan is a poor choice of words, please correct me.

full disclosure first: I'm in the process of reading The Da Vinci Code, and I am atheist. And in my opinion a reasonably well informed atheist.

I have no issues with faith, and in some ways I envy those who have it, I just pretend to possess faith.

Ok, now on to what I'm really wondering:

Are "pagan" and earth based synonomous? or closely related?

Do these religions have basis predating most "mainstream" religion?

Are any of these religions focused on balance? Yin and Yang if you will.

Is there a supreme being or beings? If so, is s/he/it a creator?

Reading this book is getting the religious juices flowing again. Thinking about faith, and moving away from "mainstream" ideas. I've always belived that the bible was a fabrication of man (chosen specifically), specifically men in power. And most things created by people in power are to concentrate and reinforce that power; not for the greater good.

I've got many more questions, but I've got to write them down, else I will forget when I sit down to type. As is usually the case.

limey · 06-22-2004, 01:10 PM

S'funny you should mention this. I was browsing a couple of threads about this sort of thing in this very Cellar only a couple of days ago ...
Try I'm a birdbrain where the discussion started and then Christians and Pagans where it continued, on and off ...
Enough to get you started, anyhoo.

06-23-2004, 02:12 PM

Well, first of all, you have to define what you mean by "pagan" religion. Do you mean Wiccan belief, for example? Are you talking about Native American spiritual practices? Or are you talking about the early "earth mother/fertility goddess" based beliefs practiced by most early European groups?

Yes, these practices were around long before Christianity came into favor. They were largely about men coming to terms with the mysterious and often unpredictable whims of Mother Nature, so I suppose that you could say that in that sense they were about being in balance with nature.

It is a tried and true method to force a conquered people to accept the conquer's religion and give up their own. A people's spiritual practice defines them as much as their language does. Notice how conquerers will also force those whom they subjugate to give up their own language. We did this with the native Americans, taking their children away to boarding schools where they were forced to speak English and punished for talking in their native tongue.

Organized religion can indeed be a way of maintaining the status quo and keeping the people under control. In the Middle Ages Kings claimed their position by the divine right given them by God, so to go against the King was to in effect go against God.

As Joseph Campbell said, "A religous experience is often what prevents us from having a spiritual experience."

Are you asking if pagans believe in a supreme being/creator or are you asking that question more generally? I know that according to Native American belief there is indeed a supreme being. In Navajo belief, for example, there was First Man and First Woman (gods if you like) who gave birth to a personage known as Changing Woman. Changing Woman created all the plants and animals and created the Navajo people from bits of her own skin. She married the sun and gave birth to twins, the two Monster Slayers who rid the earth of all the demons that once lived here. The Navajo still have a very beautiful ceremonial given to them by Changing Woman called the "Blessing Way." In this ceremonial, one asks to be allowed to "walk in beauty" - that is walk in harmony with the earth and all living beings.

Happy Monkey · 06-23-2004, 02:46 PM

It seems to me that Pagan meant "whatever was there when the Romans invaded", until the Romans converted to Christianity. At that point, the original Roman religion was Pagan too. Also, any religion that had not yet been discovered by Europeans at that point was considered Pagan when it was discovered.

Lady Sidhe · 07-01-2004, 01:36 AM

Well, technically, "pagan" comes from "paganus," which meant, in the day, "country bumpkin." Basically, christianity hit the cities first, and only gradually trickled down into the countryside, where most worshipped a pantheon of sorts. Therefore, anyone who lived in the country was referred to as a "pagan," indicating that they weren't christian.

To put it simply, all wiccans are pagans, but not all pagans are wiccan. Pagan, in my experience, has generally meant any religion that is earth-based--God/dess oriented--balance oriented. Pagan religions tend to see god reflected in nature, and so have a respect for nature. They tend to try to align themselves with nature's rhythms, for instance. Most that I've seen believe in reincarnation, in being here to learn and coming back until we're done; they may believe in a pantheon of gods that, in reality, are only facets of a single being; many believe in karma biting you in the ass for things you do that you know are wrong, and most I've seen are non-proseletyzing and believe in tolerance for all religious paths.

That's what I've experienced being a pagan. It may not be like that everywhere. I don't do covens, so I don't have a lot of experience with hierarchy and groups. Most I know are solitaries, and they range from Greek, Roman, Italian, Native American, Norse, Voudoun, and hedge/kitchen-witch types. All of them, at least the ones that I know, have had the same basic beliefs. Certainly not a massively representative group, but there it is.

Sidhe

Elspode · 07-02-2004, 06:25 PM

I've always found the easiest way to describe "Pagan" to someone is to say that it is pretty much anything that isn't Christian, Muslim or Buddhist, at least, that is how the whole thing seems to me. People at least think you aren't a complete lunatic if you tell them you are one of the "Big Three", and you can even get away with telling people you follow Native American beliefs and not have them wave garlic at you.

Anything else, though, and the "normal" people will start moving away from you in a crowded room. And I like it that way!

blue · 07-02-2004, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Is there a supreme being or beings?

Look at a Zebra and THINK.

Look at acres of land after a wildfire and THINK.

Watch a birth, get to know one of those elderly couples who have been togethor 60-70 years, get up early and watch a sunrise, and THINK.

I have a real hard time with the soup & spark crowd.

wolf · 07-03-2004, 01:23 AM

That is actually quite beautifully put, blue. Poetic, even.

Particularly given that you are drunk and horny, and therefore only moderately capable of rational thought.

(just kiddin'. you know I lust after you in my heart.)

Elspode · 07-03-2004, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by blue
I have a real hard time with the soup & spark crowd.

So where did the supposed intelligent designer come from, then? We assume everything had to be created because the only way we know how to accomplish anything is through action with a goal in mind.

The universe just *is*. It does what it does because it cannot do anything else.

Doesn't God say somewhere "I am that I am"? What's the major difference between that notion and the notion about the universe which I just postulated?

blue · 07-03-2004, 07:10 AM

Guess what, now I'm hung over & horny ;-(

I don't have the answer 'spode, I just don't believe it's random.

Undertoad · 07-03-2004, 09:08 AM

Look at the fossil record and THINK

Look at man's tendency to make up stories about things he doesn't understand, and THINK

Look at all the information we have learned about the universe, and THINK

I have a real hard time with people who get obnoxious and moronic when they drink.

novice · 07-03-2004, 09:22 AM

I've read and continue to read Sagan, Clarke, Hawking, Wells, Azimov, Heinlen and I think and think and think and still have no fucking idea!
So many ideas and theories ( well supported usually) for and agin.
I loathe the idea there is no rationale behind our existence but, simultaneously, reject the notion of omniescent omnipotence.
I prefer to confine myself to mundane pursuits, friends, drinking, playing, sex, etc and leave the angst to the clerics and philosophers.
Much like this post, I could debate this issue forever and ever and ever but it would be entirely unprovable in either direction and ultimately, pointless.

Perhaps I'm too drunk. I can't see how Blue was being obnoxious?

Undertoad · 07-03-2004, 09:58 AM

THINK!

07-03-2004, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elspode

So where did the supposed intelligent designer come from, then? We assume everything had to be created because the only way we know how to accomplish anything is through action with a goal in mind.

The universe just *is*. It does what it does because it cannot do anything else.

Doesn't God say somewhere "I am that I am"? What's the major difference between that notion and the notion about the universe which I just postulated?

When it comes to logic, I have as much trouble with the concept that the Universe just *is* as I do that God just *is.* I keep going back to the thought I posted in another thread, why should there be a universe? Why should matter and energy exist? Wouldn't nothing existing be much simpler?

If I choose the God theory, I'm left with the question of where did God come from? Who was her Mom and Dad? Why does she allow "bad things" to happen? I don't know, though. There's something aboout looking up into a starry night sky or seeing a magnificient meteor shower. There's something about looking into my own soul. I am left with the feeling that a higher intelligence does exist. If I'm wrong, its not going to hurt me any. I'll just die and my remains will go back into the earth and someday I'll be a tree or a flower which is okay by me.

blue · 07-03-2004, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Perhaps I'm too drunk. I can't see how Blue was being obnoxious?

And moronic even? UT man, where did the love go?

I maybe didn't state it eloquently but things like human emotion, and especially nature sometimes kind of blow my mind. And I don't doubt fossils & evolution, but I just don't believe it's all just chemicals and randomness.

06-22-2004, 12:29 AM	#1
Archer off target Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Indy Posts: 93	questions about "pagan"? religion/s If pagan is a poor choice of words, please correct me. full disclosure first: I'm in the process of reading The Da Vinci Code, and I am atheist. And in my opinion a reasonably well informed atheist. I have no issues with faith, and in some ways I envy those who have it, I just pretend to possess faith. Ok, now on to what I'm really wondering: Are "pagan" and earth based synonomous? or closely related? Do these religions have basis predating most "mainstream" religion? Are any of these religions focused on balance? Yin and Yang if you will. Is there a supreme being or beings? If so, is s/he/it a creator? Reading this book is getting the religious juices flowing again. Thinking about faith, and moving away from "mainstream" ideas. I've always belived that the bible was a fabrication of man (chosen specifically), specifically men in power. And most things created by people in power are to concentrate and reinforce that power; not for the greater good. I've got many more questions, but I've got to write them down, else I will forget when I sit down to type. As is usually the case.

06-22-2004, 01:10 PM	#2
limey Encroaching on your decrees Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: An island within the south-west coast of Scotland Posts: 7,016	S'funny you should mention this. I was browsing a couple of threads about this sort of thing in this very Cellar only a couple of days ago ... Try I'm a birdbrain where the discussion started and then Christians and Pagans where it continued, on and off ... Enough to get you started, anyhoo. __________________ Living it up on the edge ... of civilisation, within the southwest coast of

06-23-2004, 02:46 PM	#4
Happy Monkey I think this line's mostly filler. Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: DC Posts: 13,575	It seems to me that Pagan meant "whatever was there when the Romans invaded", until the Romans converted to Christianity. At that point, the original Roman religion was Pagan too. Also, any religion that had not yet been discovered by Europeans at that point was considered Pagan when it was discovered. __________________ _________________ \|...............\| We live in the nick of times. \| Len 17, Wid 3 \| \|_______________\| [pics]

07-01-2004, 01:36 AM	#5
Lady Sidhe That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.... Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Hammond, La. Posts: 978	Well, technically, "pagan" comes from "paganus," which meant, in the day, "country bumpkin." Basically, christianity hit the cities first, and only gradually trickled down into the countryside, where most worshipped a pantheon of sorts. Therefore, anyone who lived in the country was referred to as a "pagan," indicating that they weren't christian. To put it simply, all wiccans are pagans, but not all pagans are wiccan. Pagan, in my experience, has generally meant any religion that is earth-based--God/dess oriented--balance oriented. Pagan religions tend to see god reflected in nature, and so have a respect for nature. They tend to try to align themselves with nature's rhythms, for instance. Most that I've seen believe in reincarnation, in being here to learn and coming back until we're done; they may believe in a pantheon of gods that, in reality, are only facets of a single being; many believe in karma biting you in the ass for things you do that you know are wrong, and most I've seen are non-proseletyzing and believe in tolerance for all religious paths. That's what I've experienced being a pagan. It may not be like that everywhere. I don't do covens, so I don't have a lot of experience with hierarchy and groups. Most I know are solitaries, and they range from Greek, Roman, Italian, Native American, Norse, Voudoun, and hedge/kitchen-witch types. All of them, at least the ones that I know, have had the same basic beliefs. Certainly not a massively representative group, but there it is. Sidhe __________________ My free will...I never leave home without it. --House Someday I want to be rich. Some people get so rich they lose all respect for humanity. That's how rich I want to be. -Rita Rudner

07-02-2004, 06:25 PM	#6
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	I've always found the easiest way to describe "Pagan" to someone is to say that it is pretty much anything that isn't Christian, Muslim or Buddhist, at least, that is how the whole thing seems to me. People at least think you aren't a complete lunatic if you tell them you are one of the "Big Three", and you can even get away with telling people you follow Native American beliefs and not have them wave garlic at you. Anything else, though, and the "normal" people will start moving away from you in a crowded room. And I like it that way! __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

06-23-2004, 02:12 PM	#3
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	Well, first of all, you have to define what you mean by "pagan" religion. Do you mean Wiccan belief, for example? Are you talking about Native American spiritual practices? Or are you talking about the early "earth mother/fertility goddess" based beliefs practiced by most early European groups? Yes, these practices were around long before Christianity came into favor. They were largely about men coming to terms with the mysterious and often unpredictable whims of Mother Nature, so I suppose that you could say that in that sense they were about being in balance with nature. It is a tried and true method to force a conquered people to accept the conquer's religion and give up their own. A people's spiritual practice defines them as much as their language does. Notice how conquerers will also force those whom they subjugate to give up their own language. We did this with the native Americans, taking their children away to boarding schools where they were forced to speak English and punished for talking in their native tongue. Organized religion can indeed be a way of maintaining the status quo and keeping the people under control. In the Middle Ages Kings claimed their position by the divine right given them by God, so to go against the King was to in effect go against God. As Joseph Campbell said, "A religous experience is often what prevents us from having a spiritual experience." Are you asking if pagans believe in a supreme being/creator or are you asking that question more generally? I know that according to Native American belief there is indeed a supreme being. In Navajo belief, for example, there was First Man and First Woman (gods if you like) who gave birth to a personage known as Changing Woman. Changing Woman created all the plants and animals and created the Navajo people from bits of her own skin. She married the sun and gave birth to twins, the two Monster Slayers who rid the earth of all the demons that once lived here. The Navajo still have a very beautiful ceremonial given to them by Changing Woman called the "Blessing Way." In this ceremonial, one asks to be allowed to "walk in beauty" - that is walk in harmony with the earth and all living beings.

07-03-2004, 01:23 AM	#8
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	That is actually quite beautifully put, blue. Poetic, even. Particularly given that you are drunk and horny, and therefore only moderately capable of rational thought. (just kiddin'. you know I lust after you in my heart.) __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

07-03-2004, 07:10 AM	#10
blue Operations Operative Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Northern WI Posts: 739	Guess what, now I'm hung over & horny ;-( I don't have the answer 'spode, I just don't believe it's random. __________________ If you spot a tornado, always remember to point at it, yell "tornado!", and run like hell.

07-03-2004, 09:08 AM	#11
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Look at the fossil record and THINK Look at man's tendency to make up stories about things he doesn't understand, and THINK Look at all the information we have learned about the universe, and THINK I have a real hard time with people who get obnoxious and moronic when they drink.

07-03-2004, 09:22 AM	#12
novice Ignorance is bliss and I'm orgasmic Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: perth, australia Posts: 296	I've read and continue to read Sagan, Clarke, Hawking, Wells, Azimov, Heinlen and I think and think and think and still have no fucking idea! So many ideas and theories ( well supported usually) for and agin. I loathe the idea there is no rationale behind our existence but, simultaneously, reject the notion of omniescent omnipotence. I prefer to confine myself to mundane pursuits, friends, drinking, playing, sex, etc and leave the angst to the clerics and philosophers. Much like this post, I could debate this issue forever and ever and ever but it would be entirely unprovable in either direction and ultimately, pointless. Perhaps I'm too drunk. I can't see how Blue was being obnoxious? Last edited by novice; 07-03-2004 at 09:25 AM.

07-03-2004, 09:58 AM	#13
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	THINK!

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