Pride

[Razorfish]

Typical conversation I have with customers at work:

Customer: Do you carry this brand? I don't see any on the shelves.

Me: No sir we do not carry that brand.

Customer: I think you should check, I've seen it here before.

Me: Sir, that brand is made by a rival company, we have never carried their products.

(repeat lines 4 and 5 with customer progressivley getting louder as if I am not really hearing him/her)

Customer: LET ME TALK TO YOUR MANAGER! I'M GOING TO HAVE YOU fired/disiplined/re-assisinged/given a clue.

This conversation and others like it happen quite often. It gets me thinking that biggest problem with people, bar none, is too much pride. No one will admit their wrong, even if their proven wrong in a undisputable and friendly manner. In a situation like the example above I have noticed that offering alternatives solutions yields the customer simply repeating himself/herself, as if he's waiting for me to break down and say:

"Your right, I'm wrong, we have a secret stash in the back for people who challenge the sales staff."

Its not just retail people that deal with this either. Im sure we have all seen people fight irrational claims to the bitter end. Hell, I've even done it myself. Getting into arguements and later wondering what on earth I was trying to prove.

This happens frequently in relationships too. I have seen several intelligent, level-headed people go through relationship after relationship not realizing that their ability to let go of pride and compromise is what's causing all of the problems. Suffice to say, the one dissatisfying thing in all their relationships is themselves.

I have always believed that one of the keys to cultural enlightenment is to let go of pride, examine ourselves, and admit that we a wrong. At the rate we are all going, it looks like an impossibility (especially here in the United States).

Any thoughts or comments? I consider myself pretty self-aware of my faults but a debate might prove otherwise.

[jaguar]

It's like poker, once the stakes rise noone wants to back down. Intelligence and so called 'emotional intelligence' don't always go hand in hand.

In such a situation (sales) half the fault lies with out, yes, they're an asshole but you've got to learn to absorb, avoid and deflect. Give ground and give them a way to back down without losing face. If you're big enough to do that you're halfway to winning the battle.

[smoothmoniker]

I've see A&R guys thrown millions in marketing money away on a CD that everyone knew was a miserable failure musically, simply because no one had the stones to step up and admit that they’d made a mistake in signing the band. Again, too much pride.

-sm

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by jaguar

In such a situation (sales) half the fault lies with out, yes, they're an asshole but you've got to learn to absorb, avoid and deflect. Give ground and give them a way to back down without losing face. If you're big enough to do that you're halfway to winning the battle.

I disagree, I will not allow myself to be turned into a liar because some putz is too stupid to read. It's happened plenty of times in my past, hence my long work history.

Fuck their pride.

Conversely, on more than one occasion I've been more than willing to flex with a customer who was willing to admit they were wrong. People who are willing to bend get plenty of help from me.

[Razorfish]

Jaguar and SM make good points. No one wants to look like an idiot and a measured response is generally the best way to go. On the other hand:

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

Fuck their pride.

To get out of these situations I generally just lie and say what they want to hear: "We no longer carry that brand but this also might work...". It can be a big challenge to try reasoning with, for example, elderly people who think your just a young punk disrespecting them. No one seems to read tone these days.

In a non-retail setting there are truly people who are very set in their ways and will not even entertain alternate ideas. If someone presents me with an idea contrary to my own I always make the effort to understand where their coming from and see how well the idea stands on its own.

In a perfect world we would all weigh each others ideas and opinions equally but this world is anything but. To use myself as an example: I would say I know quite a bit about building computers to suit peoples needs. There are so many ways to go about building a computer that quite a few of the methods balance out in terms of stability and bang for the buck. When I find myself in a debate with other computer builders that use different methods than I do I often refuse to admit fault. Both methods have their good and bad points but this goes out the window when computer savy people debate. I consider myself enlightened but far from fully.

By far the worst people to debate with are the elderly. These people are so set in their ways that it makes debate with them pointless. You can have a near-flawless arguement only to have an elderly person completely ignore it and accuse you of lacking wisdom or just repeat their arguement over and over. I've met a few older people who embrace new ideas and are willing to debate but not many.

I guess my point is that people are so resistant to ideas contrary to their own that it brings out the most stupidity in them. What we really need is mandatory relationship training in schools. But then again, how effective would this be going up against people's basic nature and their homelife?

Personally I think the world would benefit if we were all intellectuals, but thats just my opinion.

[Troubleshooter]

I'm just simply tired of capitulating to the gammas.

I've done retail, IT and tech support for an ISP. The stupid people have go to go.

It's the willful ignorance that galls me most.

gamma: "Hey John, you work on computers right?"

Me: "Yeah..."

gamma: "Which one do you recommend?"

Me: "For you I'd go with an EMachine. Decent product, decent price."

gamma: "I heard they were a piece of shit!"

Me: "No, I had one for several years and I've heard no complaints form the people I know who have them."

gamma: 'I'm not buying that, it's a piece of shit."

Me: "Then why'd you ask you fucking dolt?"

Lather, rinse, repeat...

I suppose it would be nice if the general intelligence of the population at large were somewhat higher, but I don't think that this alone would solve the problem. History is filled with examples of people who were highly intelligent, yet had an emotional IQ of about 3, and the people around them suffered accordingly. In my own case, I like to think of myself as being intelligent enough, but I have done some really stupid things, acting purely out of emotion. In many of these instances I even knew at the time that I was not acting in the brightest possible manner, but I went ahead anyhow. The distance from the head to the heart, you know?

I think when it comes to pride, we're talking self-esteem as much as anything. Some people are just too damn afraid to admit that they might have been wrong, because then they're afraid everyone will think they're stupid like that kid they went to third grade with who got F's in every subject and had to repeat the third grade all over again, and everybody made fun of him and by God, I am not like that!

I think some people also feel so powerless in the rest of their lives that when they see a chance to get one over on someone else, they just jump right at it, and you could be Albert Einstein, but if you are in a position of waiting on that customer, you're going to get it with both barrels, regardless. I once worked a brief stint as one of the switchboard operators at a luxury 5 star hotel. We had to be polite, no matter what, or loose our jobs. Switchboard operators in a place like that are perfect targets. They're nameless, faceless, working for not much over the minimum wage, sitting in a windowless basement room while the caller is wealthy (by definition you had to be to stay at that place - George Bush stays there when he comes to town) and the caller can have you fired if he chooses to complain enough. Sample conversation:

Me: Switchboard, to where may I direct your call, sir (ma'am)?

Guest: I want to find a highway map of Colorado that shows how I can drive through the state without going over any mountains.

Me: (Realizing I've got a "live" one on my hands) I see. Would you like me to put you through to the concierge office? They usually can help our guests with their travel plans.

Guest: No! I've already spoken to that idiot you people hired to put in the
Con See ER Age office, and the damned fool told me that there was no such route. The man is incompetant and, believe me, the hotel management will be hearing about him!

Me: Yes, Sir. I'm sorry you were dissatisfied with our service in that area. Perhaps, you would like me to connect you with the local AAA office, then?

Guest: Obviously, I've already spoken to them, you idiot, and they were as worthless as your Con See ER Age. They said said the best I could do was I-70 which goes right over Vail Pass and my wife is terrified of mountains. She'd have a heart attack before we were even half way across.

Me: (Wondering what the hell this idiot and his neurotic wife have come to Colorado for if they don't like mountains) I'm sorry you are having so much difficulty, Sir. Just where would you like me to direct your call, then?

Guest: YOU'Re the one who's supposed to know that. You're the switch board operator, aren't you?

Me: (Visualizing Lily Tomlin - "one ringy ding, two ringy dingy...") Yes, Sir, you have reached the hotel switchboard. (by this time I am so enraged over this man's stupidity and rude behavior, I no longer care). Perhaps, you might like for me to give you the route that we locals most often use?

Guest: I knew there was a better route! What is it?

Me: Do you have a pen, Sir? (sniggering inwardly)

Guest: Yes! Yes! Tell me what it is.

Me: OK. Take highway 24 to Buena Vista, then highway 82 to Carbondale from there you'll take highway 133 to Hotchkiss, then 92 and 149 to South Fork where you'll pick up 160 to Durango. Stay on 160 to Teec Nos Pos, New Mexico, and you'll be out of Colorado, safe and sound.

Guest: No Vail Pass?

Me: Oh, I promise you, no Vail Pass.

Guest: Well, its about time I got some information out of somebody in this 3rd rate flop house! (click!)

I then spent the rest of my shift barely able to contain my laughter over having sent this "gentleman" and his wife over Colorado's highest mountain roads and 4 most trecherous passes, including Wolf Creek and Rabbit Ears Pass and having them end up in the most God forsaken part of New Mexico known to man. This is a true story, and to this very day, I don't feel the least bit guilty about it!

[jaguar]

In a retail, sales or support setting it's fuck your pride, you're being paid to be nice to people and sell them stuff, not point out when they're wrong. Don't like it? Tough, change jobs.

It doesn't matter what you do, the same skills are essential. Even if you don't have to interact with customers you will with other staff, maybe suppliers, engage in contract negotiations, external contracters etc. Whenever you're dealing with people if you're smart enough to deal with the properly you'll come out on top.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Razorfish

SNIP By far the worst people to debate with are the elderly. These people are so set in their ways that it makes debate with them pointless. You can have a near-flawless arguement only to have an elderly person completely ignore it and accuse you of lacking wisdom or just repeat their arguement over and over. I've met a few older people who embrace new ideas and are willing to debate but not many. SNIP

Maybe these people have been cheated, flim-flamed and generally screwed so many times they are wary of your "creativity". Also, when they're on a fixed income, they're decisions are more critical and ability to recover from mistakes very difficult, if not impossible.
They've probably talked to everyone they know and trust and have an idea of what they want. You said yourself, there are many different ways to put a machine together and some people as knowledgeable as yourself, disagree with your approach.

Personally I think the world would benefit if we were all intellectuals, but thats just my opinion

WARNING! WARNING! DANGER, Will Robinson. Person describing themselves as an intellectual. WARNING. DANGER.
If everyone was an intellectual, nothing would get done because they all think they're right and will debate everything, forever. :p

[wolf]

Because I was dealing with the entry window (and therefore near the lobby door) tonight, I had more interaction than usual with one of my coworker's patients.

DRUNK: I demand to see another doctor!

WOLF: There isn't another doctor.

DRUNK: What the hell do you mean?

WOLF: I mean that at night we have one evaluating doctor.

DRUNK: He MOCKED me.

WOLF: Ma'am, you are very intoxicated. You are likely misinterpreting your interaction with the doctor.

DRUNK: No, he FUCKING MOCKED ME.

WOLF: I heard you the first time.

DRUNK: I came here for help. You are not helping me. I demand to speak to your supervisor.

WOLF: There isn't one on this shift.

DRUNK: What the fuck do you mean?

WOLF: Just that. There is no supervisor here.

She was pretty much dumbfounded by that ... the notion that workers could work without having a supervisor was a new one on her, apparently. She actually continued ranting for another hour or so.

[jaguar]

[Catwoman]

I am always right. Why pretend I'm wrong just to appease some arrogant halfwit? Discussion is about WINNING. Taking part means shit. It's all about me, anyway. You are but a pickup for my noise, and what you say is at best irrelevant, and mostly just an irritating scratching that never fucking gives up. Shoot 'em all, I say.

[jaguar]

oh discussion and debate are a whole different situation, particularly real debate where the whole aim is to verbally rip out their spine and ram it up their asshole. In a dignified, respectful manner though logical and rational argument of course.

[Catwoman]

tee hee. Just call me Dr Eeevil. No, Madam Eeevil. Jag you can be Dr Eeevil. Don't mess with Eeevil I say.

(Oh dear I really should be doing some work)

[evansk7]

Originally Posted by jaguar

debate where the whole aim is to verbally rip out their spine and ram it up their asshole.

Hence the well-known phrase "diplomacy is the art of letting people have your way [and their spine up their ass]"..