The Apocalypse Continued...

[tw]

Originally Posted by Tonchi

The Vanity Fair article also pointed out that the recent upswing in anti-Semitism and destruction of Jewish property and synagogues in France, which is giving France a black eye in international organizations which they belong to, is directly attributable to the growing percentage of Muslims there, who will not accept that they live in a secular country now and that kind of hate is not permitted.

IOW symptoms of 'racism' against anyone or anything that is not French. Somehow it is about immigrants who refuse to live a secular life? That's rather naive. These are second and third generation immigrants that have long been angry about being second class citizens. Did the lesson of 1960s American south not demonstrate what happens when some 'second plus' generation citizens are treated also as second class citizens?

I don't see nor hear Muslims demanding that France become a Muslim state. What I do hear is Muslims, Africans (who are neither Muslim nor Arab), and other minorities complaining about being treated as second class "niggers".

Remember France is a nation that blames ills on others such as illegal immigration. BTW, did you notice Americans even in the Cellar make the same complaints about them evil illegal immigrants who are destroying the American way of life? There are lessons to be learned from our peers. Welcome to inevitable globalisation.

What is the complaint from those immigrants in France? Number one complaint is no jobs. So it must be their fault? It must be their insistance on practicing Islam principles? From The Economist of 5 Novermber 2005

With 10% unemplyment and a poor Muslim population largely confined to grim suburban housing estates, the ingredients for social explosion have long been brewing. In fact, vehicle-burning has become the suburban crime of choice. Last new year's eve some 333 cars were burned, a figure the police celebrated as "stable".

Show me where and why this problem has not been simmering; only made worse by French national denial and accusations of Islamic extremism?

Next step - does France blame it on Al Qaeda? Or do the French start admitting this has long been a problem created by a French 'Caste' system. A system where Africans have French citizenship officially - but are second class citizens pragmatically.

just a quick comment on racism in another European country - Switzerland. Switzerland has a sizable number of Turkish "guest" workers. The Turks do everything the Swiss don't want to dirty their hands with and many Swiss view the Turks with contempt. I have heard of no major riots breaking out in Switzerland, however.

I think that this is because the Swiss would simply rid of themselves of the problem completely if such things were to happen. Switzerland was never a colonial power as France was and feels no special obligation to give ANY foreign nationals special consideration.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by tw

snip~~
What is the complaint from those immigrants in France? Number one complaint is no jobs. So it must be their fault? It must be their insistance on practicing Islam principles? From The Economist of 5 Novermber 2005

Show me where and why this problem has not been simmering; only made worse by French national denial and accusations of Islamic extremism?

I'm curious about this segment of the french population "largely confined to grim suburban housing estates". Are these people oppressed because they are Muslim, undereducated or simply not french?

[tw]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

I'm curious about this segment of the french population "largely confined to grim suburban housing estates". Are these people oppressed because they are Muslim, undereducated or simply not french?

The term "suburban housing estates" or housing blocks are simply another word for what is called in America "the projects". I am struck by virutally every 'on the street' interview cited by BBC World Service. Quotes from all six random interviews:

Ziwyana Cherif: "I don't think it was racism, just a mistake by the police which they should admit.

"But I do see racism every day. People's faces change as soon as they see a black or Arab face. The death of those boys was the straw that broke the camel's back."



Mamadou Nyang, 19: I left school two years ago but have never had a job. As soon as I say my name and where I live, they tell me the vacancy has gone.

I am happy to do any job, except be a policeman. I hate the police. As soon as they see blacks or Arabs, they just try and cause trouble.



Ahmed Belmokhtar, taxi driver :But the kids now don't want to suffer like their parents and grandparents did. The state is being tough at the moment but later it will have to listen.

In the long-term, these riots will force the government to act. Otherwise, the next round of violence will be even worse.

The police are very rude - they don't understand our problems.



Maratt Sabek: We just want to be recognised as human beings, instead of being seen as Arabs or blacks.

We don't all want new mosques - that's only important for a few people, yet that's what the state does.



Bilal, 29, civil servant: Even in the civil service, we are victimised. We have to work twice as hard as white French people. That's the problem with France - institutional racism.

I don't approve of the violence but it's the only way of sounding the alarm. We demand equality of opportunity.



Mehmet Altun, 15: The police come and hassle us all the time. They ask us for our papers 10 times a day.

They treat us like delinquents - especially [Interior Minister Nicolas] Sarkozy. That's not the answer.

It gets even more interesting. Sarkozy is a second generation immigrant. And yet his solution would make Urbane Guerilla proud. He advocates confronting riots only with more force. That is simply a formula for escalation. Did we not learn, for example, why 1968 Harlem (NYC) did not go up in flames? Instead of confronting potential violence with force, Mayor Lindsay even personally walked the streets every night. Talking to the people. Learning of the problems. Addressing the issues rather than blindly use force.

Worse still, another lesson from 1968. You would be surprised how many peers actually (and quietly) hold very racist opinions. Opinions that are not exposed until events such as 1968 riots or the current French crisis occur.

Unfortunately many still see all this in terms of Mosques or some underlying violence inherent in Islam. But that is repeatedly not what street interviews say. Those street interviews are exactly what one would expect if the second class citizenship is institutionalized and the people had no Martin Luther King or Gandhi to lead them to a non-violent solution.

Rosa Parks could have resulted in a violent backlash. Instead it was lead by Martin Luther King into a non-violent solution. Therein lays a challenge for all sides in France. The French civil disorder spreading across their country is a story about more than just two sides.

[bargalunan]

I agree with TW.

In the 19th century Baron Haussman destroyed the old short and narrow streets of Paris, and built the “Grands boulevards”.
He built a lot of modern infrastructures like sewers etc …
Some advantages were that Paris became cleaner, the traffic more convenient. Another advantage was that with such wide streets, the police could control popular riots more easily !

All along the “Grands boulevards” he built high buildings. I like how people were living there. The ground floor and the highest floors were reserved for the low class citizens (there was no lift, and the ground floor isn’t always safe). Middle and high classes stayed in the middle floors. (Very high classes were living in particular buildings). So low, middle and high class were living, meeting and melting together.

At the beginning of the 20th century France was suffering from immigration : Italians “Rital”, Polish “Polacs”, Spanish. Extreme rights already wanted to expulse them, they were responsible of unemployment, lost of French culture… Few of us remember that. We just enjoy Emile Zola novels (Italian), Picasso (Spanish), Platini, Koppa (soccers players, sons of Italians and Polish immigrants) etc…

During the first World War, France used African soldiers coming from French colonies (PS : children of “Tirailleurs sénégalais” are always waiting for their income).
After WW2 France needed immigration to rebuilt the country, it was the full employment. So came north African, and black African workers. France quickly built suburbs with high modern and dehumanised buildings.
At the beginnings living in these suburbs was nice with all kinds of people : native French and immigrants. But finally those buildings badly grew old. Only the low class citizens and immigrants stayed there. Hopeless territories for hopeless people.

France thus built ghettos which suffer from lack of links between social classes.

Immigrants are the first who suffer from unemployment (they often are less skilled and at equal level suffer from racism). Second generation immigrants are still not French and no more African, Algerian etc… They’re looking for their identity and the society really doesn’t help them.
They want to work like everybody, be able to buy everything that TV boasts them. They just want to stop unfairness, racial, economical. (before, former immigrants were also less impatient and more resigned, but they could work)

I really disagree with those behaviours (made by second or and third-generation immigrants, mostly North African Arabs, or by native French people) : destroying other people cars and public structures. They can’t see any other solution.

Our anticrime interior minister and deep psychopate, (son of Hungarian immigrant) Nicolas Sarkozy’s first decision in 2003 was to revoke a police captain who tried to help communication between police and the young population of suburbs.
He never stopped pouring oil on fire.
- Calling young immigrants, the "thugs".
- Wanting to use the “Kärcher” to clean them !!!
- Rising a French Islamic fanatic as an enemy, despite nobody has ever heard of him before.

Hopeless people’s anger can easily be used. Riots really began last week when SOMEBODY (who ???) dropped a tear gas grenade (coming from police munition) in a mosque !!!

During the first gulf war, Arabian, Islamic immigrants stayed quiet in France. They don’t want to set their religion and way of life in France. (Excepted some seldom fanatics)

There are real social problems but medias are building political and religious theories to explain them, and still more divide people.

PS 1 : There are not a lot of Turkish immigrants in France (more in Germany)
PS 2 : Medias are building political and religious theories but I still believe in conspiracy theory. Sarkozy, Bush, Blair… idem

[Undertoad]

I agree with tw also.

My French teacher in high school - 25 years ago - told a story about a time she was visiting a French family. The maid came in and everyone at the table went silent and stared uncomfortably at my teacher. After the maid left, they sighed in relief. The maid was black, and the family had the stereotype that all Americans hate all blacks. They expected her to be angry and upset.

When my teacher told the story, she made an interesting point about it: it would have been inconceivable for the black woman to be anything much higher than a servant. That turns the story full circle - of an American society trying to heal from its deep racism problem, and French society that apparently had a racism problem under the surface and did not recognize it for what it was.

[Undertoad]

Also, for what it's worth, it seems to be partly a policing problem, right? For a long time the police would not engage the suburbs/projects; wouldn't even GO there, and would let even rather major crimes go unpunished. I think the lesson is partly that you can't allow that to happen; you have to police all people and not just the "low hanging fruit".

If you were a cop, and had the choice of fighting violent crime in cultures you don't understand, or spending all day writing traffic tickets, what would you do? It would take a lot of motivation to fight violent crime. A lot more if the culture is completely foreign to you.

Thus the police asking for people's papers and generally hassling them, racially profiling, because that's easy and safe, but not actually going after the hardasses, fighting and solving crime.

Barg, we will find it quite humorous and sad if you try to pin this on Bush and Blair. If the violence continues, your voters will demand all politicians be Sarkozys.

[bargalunan]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

If the violence continues, your voters will demand all politicians be Sarkozys.

YES, increase the problem in order to bring his own solution, that Sarkozy's policy. (Or perhaps he was just too much influenced by Urban Guerrilla ! :p )

But Sarkozy seems to be too extremist for French people. Weeks ago he was still the best candidate for the next presidency. Now, our prime minister De Villepin who looks more moderate hold the pole position. He looks moderate but he's keeping Sarkozy in his governement...
We're even better than US : We'll only have the choice between two members of the same political party ! French left wing is KO.

You're right, it's a policing problem, but instead of taking preventive humanist measures, too many politicians fight against each other in steril political speeches when it's too late (that's what I wanted to say in "building political theories to explain them"), and put another social pressure to contain people.
We've been waiting for years our suburbs blast.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

it would have been inconceivable for the black woman to be anything much higher than a servant.

it would have been inconceivable for my parents (white) to be anything much higher than a servant and a workman.
I don't think French people are SO racist. The main problems are unemployment, education, difference of cultures (of social classes or of immigration).

Speaking with foreign people living in France, French way of thinking is quite negative. We haven't got US "self made man" spirit.

[Tonchi]

Originally Posted by tw

BTW, did you notice Americans even in the Cellar make the same complaints about them evil illegal immigrants who are destroying the American way of life?

I would just like to clarify my participation in that thread, which I was not able to do as it developed because I was in the hospital. I also did not give the title to that thread, but I read it as "ironic" rather than racist.

Illegal and legal immigrants from Mexico and are now a huge percentage of the population in California, and Fresno county has a higher percentage of them than any other place north of LA. We are waist-deep in them, and they just keep coming. They are not in any way evil, nor as a group are they conniving to destroy ANYBODY'S way of life. I have the right to talk about it because for 12 years I have had more to do with Mexicans than the so-called "white" community; they are my friends, dates, co-workers, bosses, classmates, and my teachers. Mexicans who know me like to tease me that I am more Mexican in attitude than they are. I speak to them all around me during the day and spend all night writing in Spanish and monitoring a bilingual forum. I only watch Spanish TV programs and my radios are all tuned to Spanish pop music stations, so most of the time I know nothing about network TV. I adore Mexico and find the people from there to be warm and interesting.

All they want to do is have a chance to work and raise a family, and they are often excellent parents. There is not a higher percentage of criminals and abusers in the Hispanic population than there is in the US population as a whole, but they have an unfortunate tendency to end up in the spotlight. For one thing, they have no experience or confidence in navigating through the social and legal system of this country, and they tend to "get in trouble" at a rate 4 times higher than other groups. 80% of the court cases in Fresno County have to do with Hispanics. The schools and hospitals are filled with them at a very high percentage compared with only 10 years ago. THIS is what has already cratered the social services in my area. THAT is what disturbs me, not that some hated group has conspired to do this to me and "us". This is simple arithmatic, not a conspiracy or an invasion. If the per-capita income and education level of any given area DECREASES steadily year after year, which is happening to us here, the resulting degradation to the quality of life is inevitable. Taxes are way down, utilization of services has more than doubled, you do the math. It is not racism to report the facts. After filling every other part of our lives, they are now filling our jails. Immigrants are more likely to kill each other, they are more likely to be involved in gangs, they drive without insurance and hit things frequently, and they get tangled up in bad life choices which drag them down. This is not because they are sub-normal or evil people! Far from it. As a group they are no worse than the rest of us, but they are too new to the kind of life and regulations which we take for granted and they slip up a lot. Then they do not take care of the problems so they keep coming back to bite them. They do a LOT of things "all wrong" by our standards, but it's a learning process. The good news is that by the 2nd generation they no longer have too many babies, they start getting to college in greater numbers, they have their own businesses, things start leveling out.

So do not mistake my position in the Illegal Immigrants thread, that's all. I hate the situation and I think it is being "handled" all wrong, if you can say it is being handled at all, but I am not for throwing them all out of the country. Too many of my friends would be gone if you did that.

France is facing the same thing with the Muslims as we have with the Hispanics in this country. The difference between France and the USA just might be because Hispanics are not perceived as having any theocratic or radical-religious leanings. In the post above, I had no intention of analyzing "race relations" so much as pointing out the hypocrisy of other countries coming down on the USA when they have many social wounds of their own festering. Racial inequality is inevitable, no matter what the country or its level of development. Even in Africa, where EVERYBODY is "black", they are busy discriminating and trying to wipe each other out based on any perceived difference you can imagine, this is NOT just OUR personal defect! I perceive a real fear in France that the Muslims WILL try to take over and enforce some kind of cultural and governmental change, if their numbers continue to increase and "if they are given the chance", and this probably has something to do with the police response. Fear like that is not something the "civilized countries" want to admit.

[mrnoodle]

Europe is pretty screwed.

Some parts are pretty when they're not screwed, though.


bwah!

[tw]

Originally Posted by Tonchi

I would just like to clarify my participation in that thread, which I was not able to do as it developed because I was in the hospital. ...
Illegal and legal immigrants from Mexico and are now a huge percentage of the population in California, and ... They are not in any way evil, nor as a group are they conniving to destroy ANYBODY'S way of life.

Tonchi then moved on to describe what also happened to Miami after the Marianna boat lift. For a while, the entire economy of Miami depressed as its absorbed mass numbers of Cuba refugees. Incomes dropped. Crime increased. Government services became burdened. And then Miami because prosperous.

Appreciate what an immigrant really is. It is a resource. How good a resource? All depends upon how much the host country wants to welcome that resource.

History has demonstrated that a nation's most productive people are its third generation immigrants. But if those future resources of a country become so frustrated as to even riot, well, the country better first look at itself.

I will sometimes sit in a coffee shop working on, for example, a Maxwell Equation or something as complex looking. What has repeatedly occurred, it is often a waiter or bus boy - an immigrant - who will ask questions - who actually has some education in this advanced math. American eyes too often will call math hard. You tell me who still has an interest in learning? Who has the curiosity that defined the patriotic America? It only demonstrates again why immigrants are always the future of long term growth and prosperity. Tonchi only demonstrates that what happened in Miami also is happening in CA.

[Tonchi]

Tonchi personally knows five people who fled Castro's Cuba. Tonchi visited Miami both before and after the Cuban influx, and can personally speak about the economic revitalization of that area. Tonchi admires Emilio Estefan and Kike Santander, who practically single-handedly made "Latin" music part of mainstream America in recent years. But TW needs to check out some facts before he draws broad assumptions about Cubans in Miami. The people who led the economic boom were the PROFESSIONALS AND EDUCATED PEOPLE who fled Cuba. They arrived beginning in the early 60's, and men who had been doctors in their native countries were willing to work as janitors. Those families rose to the top again within one generation. Cristina Saralegui's family were publishers in Cuba and they became publishers again in the US. TW is referencing the "MARIEL BOATLIFT" phenomenon which came later, when Castro deliberately emptied the prisons and insane asylums of the dregs of Cuba and sent them in a wave to the US. Boats were actually forced to take these scum or they could not leave. It was not a "rush to freedom", it was a Communist regime seizing a window of opportunity to get rid of the trash which they didn't have the resources to support. These criminals and other undesirables hit Florida and busily went about doing what got them into prison in Cuba in the first place, and to this day Florida has not been able to deport them or deal with them as normal refugees or immigrants, giving them almost a Guantanamo status. They also dispersed quickly to other states, causing a mini "Cuban Crime Wave" until law enforcement realized what was happening and began to deal with it. TW would do well to find out how even other Cuban refugees did not embrace the "Marielitos" and didn't appreciate how they negatively impacted the gains other Cubans had been accomplishing in previous years. Tonchi also personally knows two girls who came over with the Mariel Boatlift. They were scum in Cuba and they are scum in Miami; these girls led an attack on Latin star Paulina Rubio at an awards program, disgracing our fan club and other decent Latinos on national television. Don't make assumptions or give a knee-jerk reaction to "Cubans" in Florida, because you are giving credit across the board and it is not due to all. And definitely do not use the word Mariel around any professionals you meet in Miami, because it is an insult. Even immigrants and refugees have groups they discriminate against

For the differences in the Cuban community which I have mentioned above, California IS NOT the same dynamic as Miami. For one thing, it is a heck of a lot easier to get into California by land, but we do not have the "catch and release" principles running our INS here. In Florida, any Cuban who makes it ashore in the US may stay; if they intercept your boat on the water, you get sent back. Mexicans do not have the same privileges. They are fair game on both sides of the border, but nevertheless many of them come and go constantly, taking money and consumer goods back to relatives which remain in Mexico. Money earned by Mexicans working in the USA and sent home is now the largest income source in their country, having passed petroleum and tourism. I don't intend to discuss the despicable "Plantation Economy" of Fresno County and much of California which encourages importation of cheap and degraded labor. It would take a Federal Commission and 10 years of investigation to make any inroads to stopping that, and besides, I already said elsewhere that I believe it will go around and come back to bite us in the ass if we don't address the problems which our society is creating here and everywhere there is an uneducated and unskilled underbelly.

Yes, I believe that California will be a different and not automatically worse place because of the immigrants. They will contribute a new vitality, but only when they get out from under the Plantation Economy which brought most of them here in the first place. They have nothing in common with the Cubans except dialects of the same language (except for the Mixtecs, but that is a different problem). The Mexicans who came here were lucky to have a 4th grade education, they were not doctors and upper/middle-class people fleeing political oppression. Everything they have achieved was gained HERE, they have really intended to improve themselves and their lives and that is the epitome of the American Dream. In doing that, they have also improved the lives of uncounted millions of Mexicans, who are enjoying the benefits back home and adding to the economy there. Yes, California will ultimately benefit, but we still have hanging over our heads the FACT that the number of people in the state has doubled in the last 25-30 years. Right now we simply can't take care of them, and THAT problem is getting worse instead of better. Everybody suffers as a result. That is why I believe we have to seal our borders and control entry to this country, and screw all the conspicuous consumers who think they need maids and gardeners and below-minimum-wage janitors at Walmart. It's not racism to say "this has got to stop now", we don't need 10 million more Norwegians any more than we can absorb 10 million more Mexicans.

This is not what France is facing, however. One of the few things Reagan said that I agreed with was when he told the story about how a person from ANY country - no matter what color, religion, or background - could BE an American. We are an entire nation of immigrants, it is our strength and not our weakness. But Reagan said you can't go to Italy and become an Italian or to France and become French the same way. The problem in France is so painful because they are facing a crisis of their national identity if the Muslim immigration continues unchecked. They can't be "absorbed", and that is what keeps them second-class or worse there. It's not a matter of "there is no more room for you", it's a lot deeper rejection than that. That is why the resentment is boiling over and why the reaction to it is so violent. It's going to be very difficult for them to resolve this. It's not a matter of passing a few civil rights laws to make the minorities happy anymore.

[bargalunan]

Yeah !

Finally De Villepin decides to restore financial support to SOME associations in suburbs (those which deal with education and housing help). It was suppressed or reduced these last years despite they guarantee important social links.

Nothing in order to finance again “emploi jeunes”, former little jobs, now suppressed, which were helping a lot of associations.

He also wants to increase scholarships, and to allow apprenticeship since fourteen years old for children with great school difficulties (it was already possible before and reduced to 16).

It’s fantastic : suddenly they find solutions ! Why did they do the opposite before ? Hoping we’ll see these promises.

But :

Now a law will allow our prefects to order curfews in every French territory which need that. It wasn't even decided in may 1968.................

Problem (never solved before or created) - > Solution (police control) - > lost of freedom allowed.

Caption : youngsters : the state is a mother for you

[bargalunan]

Originally Posted by Tonchi

The problem in France is so painful because they are facing a crisis of their national identity if the Muslim immigration continues unchecked. They can't be "absorbed", and that is what keeps them second-class or worse there. It's not a matter of "there is no more room for you", it's a lot deeper rejection than that. That is why the resentment is boiling over and why the reaction to it is so violent. It's going to be very difficult for them to resolve this. It's not a matter of passing a few civil rights laws to make the minorities happy anymore.

A lot of "Muslim immigration" have already been "absorbed" in France before unemployment problems. And you could have difficulties to distinguish them among native French people. Most of young "Muslim" 2nd generation immigrants don't care about their religion. They want to work, have French way of life, even drink Coca Cola. Girls coming from North African immigration are dressed like Britney Spears despite medias show 2 girls per year wearing a tchador.
France is proud to be a non-religious state that can merge different cultures.

But you're right, the problem will increase because more and more African rather risk their life in order to come in Europe (Italy, Spain, France, Germany, England) than starving in their own country.
It's a result of our former and actual selfishness, when Occidental countries exploit their colonies, keeping dictators in power in order to exploit their natural resources instead of helping these countries to develop themselves in respecting their own culture.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Tonchi

This is not what France is facing, however. One of the few things Reagan said that I agreed with was when he told the story about how a person from ANY country - no matter what color, religion, or background - could BE an American. We are an entire nation of immigrants, it is our strength and not our weakness. But Reagan said you can't go to Italy and become an Italian or to France and become French the same way. The problem in France is so painful because they are facing a crisis of their national identity if the Muslim immigration continues unchecked. They can't be "absorbed", and that is what keeps them second-class or worse there.

Endorsed above is a fundamental that promotes racism in nations. Any nation that cannot absorb immigrants is doomed to decay and racist citizens. That is history that also demonstrated this trend: the most productive members of a population are its third generation immigrants.

What Tonchi is saying is that some European nations must die off because they cannot do what America did. Italy, for example, is a nation seriously short of productive workers. Immigrants are desperately needed and should so easily become Italians. To say, for one minute, that only this type of person is Italian and that others must conform to this image; that's racist. My friend has Korean daughters - who speak with southern belle accents. Clearly they cannot be southern. Just look at the eyes. Clearly they cannot be southern American belles. Just look at the eyes. And yet that is what American is. What was typically American yesterday must not be the typical American of tomorrow. American means not being what was previously a typical American. Italian means not being what the typical Italian was 20 years ago. It is why productive nations - and their populations - change with the times.

I disagree with Tonchi's comment about Miami. What he said is not even what the historical summaries document. Yes- the Mariel boatlift did include many hard core criminals. But it also included many times more productive people who were criminals only according to Castro politics.

Somehow Tonchi assumes only professionals - ie doctors - can be productive. Miami found among the Mariel boat people a massive number of productive Americans. That is history by looking at everyone - not just the scum people that Tonchi knew. Mariel boat refugees were not made productive because of police enforcement. They were productive because they were Cubans - humans who would start all over again from scratch to become employed and productive residents. They wanted what most people in the world want.

Yes, I believe that California will be a different and not automatically worse place because of the immigrants. They will contribute a new vitality, but only when they get out from under the Plantation Economy which brought most of them here in the first place. They have nothing in common with the Cubans except dialects of the same language (except for the Mixtecs, but that is a different problem).

Apparently the most important statement about immigrants was misunderstood. A nation's most productive people are its third generation immigrants. Same for Miami immigrants, as for CA immigrants, and as for French immigrants. Unfortunately too many only complain about today - the classic MBA response - without considering long term consequences. Long term consequences are only what we should be looking at. What would be the source of another wave of CA prosperity? All those plantation workers whose offspring will be raised on those same principles of hard work, temperance, freedom, responsibility, and the 'American dream' are, historically, the best source of a productive America.

Again, what is the greatest source of a nation's success? Its third generation immigrants. Time to stop complaining about them. Time to start dealing productively with them.

If Tonchi has a problem with too many immigrants, then why did I not see a single post from him about the mental midget president who maintain agricultural subsidies (a screw the world attitude), protect anti-American industries such as steel, corporate welfare, etc - all so that illegal immigrants must come to America for those jobs?

Perfect example of a hypocrite would be one who complains about illegal immigration and yet does not immediate start complaining why so many immigrants must come here. Where is that complaint against US government subsidies - corporate welfare - to US Sugar and other industries who need those illegals? If a problem exists, that is where the complaints should start.

Two countries that will not come to grips with the reasons for illegal immigration - US and France - are THE two countries also accused of perverting the Doha round of the WTO trade talks. Of course, if you have a responsible viewpoint on illegal immigration, then you know specifically of the premature breakup of those Doha round talks recently in Mexico. A breakup directly traceable to France and the George Jr "we know better than everyone else" attitude.

Meanwhile the mass flow of immigrants in CA and Miami will be and are examples of what has made America (and other nations) great. This even demonstrated by the Roman Empire. Those who have a problem with immigration should be attacking incumbent politicians tomorrow for creating the problem by perverting globalisation.



BTW, if you don't know who to vote for tomorrow, then vote against the incumbent. Otherwise the incumbents have a history of becoming corrupt faster.