A mirrow reflection.

Heh. I guess I'm just missing out on this bitter bite of reality, 'cause I really don't see it.

I'm not going to get into Darwinism here; rather, I'm just going to say that blaming the western world for all problems is silly and counter-productive. It truly does nothing to help your (what I assume to be noble) goal, and instead, discredits you to those who would normally pay attention to what you have to say. A bigger TV or a faster computer or a different car are all reasonable things to want, just as I'm sure many in the third world would enjoy having. Are they part of the problem by wanting a better life? Are they part of the problem by wanting to be immersed in their movies, or wanting to drive a safe and comfortable car (Volvo S70, awwww yeah)? You sure don't paint them so, yet they're really no different than us, with the exception for the fact that my annual income is greater than theirs. I am fortunate enough to have been born in a country whose government and citizens have pushed it forward. Any country can do this - they just need the leadership to do so. Take a look at Japan, for example - before World War II, they were underdeveloped. Immediately after World War II, they produced shit - Japanese electronics were laughable. Now, they produce some of the highest quality products available worldwide. They have the world's 2nd largest economy. It wasn't magic. It was hard work and the right leadership. Most any country can do this.

Anyway, I really think you've watched "Fight Club" too many times and gotten the wrong message.

[IndyTone]

Originally posted by FreeYourself

Those last 2 words are the exact response to 99% of north america. Being glad can only accomplish so much dude. It's time act!

99%? Come on. You just made that up. Everyone knows that it's really 76.89%.

PS--No one is taking you seriously for a reason.

[FreeYourself]

I'm sorry but offending people that choose paths destructable to others is very mild when compared to the destruction they cause.

By accusing me, one who's choosen to give voice to these people, you're only deffending those who decide lives are expendable.

Oh ya, an addict yes. But look deeper. Who's at loss to this addiction, besides the person him/herself? possibly the people of the sun? Those people who build the items which we are addicted to buying.

And YES, that is harsh. I'm sorry but reality is harsh, especially in this corporate world where they try to make everything seem as if it's hunky dory.

[FreeYourself]

I say 99% meaning Virtually Everyone.

And YES I can assume this.

Tune into reallity sometime and just watch. Why do you see lil kids wanting and wanting and as they get older still wanting and wanting.

I bet you have neumorous things in the back of your mind that you want to buy, and will.


You want a Volvo? Why not donate to greenpeace instead and settle for a sunfire. Maybe helping the rainforests, or maybe helping make more strict laws for toxic wasts.

Donate, assuming you're unfamilliar because you appear to put yourself ahead of everyone, means to give out of the kindness, yes kindness, of your heart to a worthy cause. This is not to be confused with investing in an oil company only to have you money doubled in a year and the natural world depleted more.

Think, that's all I ask.

Originally posted by FreeYourself
I'm sorry but offending people that choose paths destructable to others is very mild when compared to the destruction they cause.

By accusing me, one who's choosen to give voice to these people, you're only deffending those who decide lives are expendable.

Oh ya, an addict yes. But look deeper. Who's at loss to this addiction, besides the person him/herself? possibly the people of the sun? Those people who build the items which we are addicted to buying.

And YES, that is harsh. I'm sorry but reality is harsh, especially in this corporate world where they try to make everything seem as if it's hunky dory.

You're funny.

No one gives a shit if you offend someone. But consider this scenario:

You're posting on an internet forum and you have some rather unorthodox views.

Two people approach you about these views. One of them says "Hey FreeYourself, you fucking dickface cocksucker heroin addict, personally responsible for the deaths of thousands of starving children of whereever, your views are wrong."

The other says "Look, I see what you're saying, but I think maybe your argument is a bit flawed. See, when you look at it like this..." and then goes on to, rationally, thoughtfully and kindly support their view, without calling you names.

Who are you going to be inclined to listen to?

Now. That aside.

First, drop the word "accusing" - we're not accusing, we're stating facts. You're likening consumers to heroin addicts. Period.

Second, I'm not defending those who decide lives are expendable. I'm defending a lifestyle which I quite enjoy, and whom those in the Philippines or the Congo or whereever would quite enjoy as well, provided they were represented by a government that actually strove to make the country a better place rather than lining their own deep pockets. I'm defending their choice to come to America and live it up.

Third, your "But look deeper" line is almost totally BS. As far as the political cartoon is concerned, the intent is not to portray the victims in a friendly light or maybe help them out. It is, instead, to ridicule the consumer, likening them to a heroin addict. There's nothing deeper to look at, because you didn't give it to us, and neither did the cartoonist. That's it. Thanks.

Fourth, we've been over this, but you were out on the discussion, so I'll sum it up: a lot of us by American made products. I personally do it so I can help create well paying jobs for my fellow citizens. Some items are produced in less-than-great situations elsewhere in the world. Some are produced in downright awful conditions. If you want to enact change, maybe you should try and politely open the eyes of the world instead of acting all uppity and smart about it.

"And YES, that is harsh." Not really. You're giving yourself too much credit here. Stop trying to sound all insightful - you're not Yoda, for fuck's sake, and when you talk like that, it does nothing to help get your message across - instead, it makes you sounds like an idiot.

I'm trying to help you here, by giving you some tips for improving your argument. Are you listening? Were you listening last time?

Post some facts. Show me that they're facts. Cut down the rhetoric and talk to me as a human being. People aren't convinced by assholes - they're convinced by kind words that make sense. You seem to really care about making a difference (I personally don't care whether or not you pick up on this, which is why I can be an asshole about it) - learn how to make people believe your argument, instead of turning their ears off.

[FreeYourself]

Alright, fair enough.

A man driven by numbers and dollar signs needs just that to convince him elsewise.

I've read facts, I've lived facts, I hate facts and never remember them. Should that make my arguments any less? I guess so.

I'm not saying I'm going to change your life by my postings on a message board on the Internet. I'm just giving you the oppinion of another HUMAN BEING and not numbers.

If you're not the type to listen, or even consider, a persons word becuase it's not backed up by numbers and refferences than I'm not the one to help sway your mind, for what is in my mind, for the better.

Originally posted by FreeYourself
You want a Volvo? Why not donate to greenpeace instead and settle for a sunfire. Maybe helping the rainforests, or maybe helping make more strict laws for toxic wasts.

Here you go again...

How old are you? I'm just curious. I can't see this coming from someone 25+, unless you're stark raving mad. Seriously. How old are you? What's your name? I feel worse about being a dick if I know something about you.

Now. Firstly, Volvo's cars are made in Sweden from swedish parts. So I'm taking that money and purchasing from a well established company that doesn't use cheap labor. Thank me for that. I'm doing the world a favor.

Volvos are also safer cars, meaning that I'm more likely to live a long time, die of natural causes and leave a ton of money behind to some nice charities, instead of getting smashed up at the age of 25 in my piece of shit Sunfire.

Originally posted by FreeYourself
Donate, assuming you're unfamilliar because you appear to put yourself ahead of everyone, means to give out of the kindness, yes kindness, of your heart to a worthy cause.

"Fucking moron", in case you're unfamiliar with the term, means someone like you. That means, someone who assumes traits about another's character based solely upon unrelated discussion. Nice dramatic pausing ("kindness, yes kindness") - that really moved me. Could you please stop posting now? I feel like I'm getting stupider from reading them, and you certainly aren't helping my productivity at work.

Do me a fucking favor: Don't think. That's all I ask! Maybe then we'll be safe from your drivel.

[Nic Name]

Every generation has idealistic, passionate youth.

That's a good thing.

Age will bring a broader perspective and some wisdom, for sure.

I just hope Free Himself doesn't get all cynical about the western capitalist pigs and go off to join the Taliban.

There is no moral equivalency between No Nukes and No Nikes.

Don't lose the passion, Free Spirit. Just take your time to learn what's going on in the world (sweatshops included).

Then pick your causes, and make a difference in the world around you that your kids will appreciate.

And try to enjoy life along the way.

Originally posted by FreeYourself
A man driven by numbers and dollar signs needs just that to convince him elsewise.

Tee hee! You're so cute when you make shit up!

I love you.

[Nic Name]

There's a cool way to get this important message heard.

This Note's For You

http://www.sing365.com/music/Lyric.n...25690E0015D4B5

Neil Young talks the talk and walks the walk.

With wife Pegi, Young co-founded the Bridge School for Handicapped Children near San Francisco, and each year holds a star-studded benefit. Their son Ben has cerebral palsy and attended the school. Young has also founded a company that makes devices for the disabled, as well as high-tech toys — one of the company's projects is manufacturing an improved wheelchair that Young helped design. The irascible elder statesman of rock eschews the trappings of fame and lives a rather reclusive life on his Northern California ranch. He declines most interviews, and has said that he will no longer grant them to Rolling Stone, in particular, because of its perfumed ad inserts: "I don't like the way the magazine smells."

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.n...25690D000D3168

Thanks Neil, for this note, and your life's body of work.

http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.n...25699D002A2C5F

[Joe]

I own a really cool house. I lay awake in it at night, dreaming of building a huge back porch, putting in skylights, of buying a boat or ultralight airplane to put in the 3-car garage, of wiring it for ethernet and cable and sound. And so much more, of filling the closets with nice clothing, the rooms with nice furniture, and being able to just enjoy life in peace.

I can't afford everything at once, but I can manage it slowly. So I wait, buy things when I can, and build my dreams as I live out my years.

I know my neighbors, have lots of friends and enjoy my world.

Am I evil?

[elSicomoro]

FreeYourself, I applaud you for your effort and intent. I believe I understand what you are trying to say, and agree with it to an extent.

Although I have no problem with the pics posted, I do have a recommendation: How you feel is completely cool, but if you want to change minds, educate people. Which means, bring on the facts. (And truth be told, without facts, you'll be eaten alive by some folks here. And why not? Facts help tell the story, hence educate.) These pictures are really nothing more than shock value, which doesn't seem to work on Western society when it comes to an issue like this. You look no better than one of those protestors in Genoa or Seattle.

Out of curiosity, what are you doing to help our environment and our world as a whole? Hopefully, you are practicing what you preach.

[warch]

Freebie, I have a problem with your posture that " I speak for the poor masses....I give them voice..." Who are you? what have you lived? How pompous and disrespectful sounding. You dont seem honest, yet I want to imagine that you are sincere in your desire to make the world better. There seems to be no experience, only rhetoric and quick sound bites. The cartoon isnt shocking, kinda trite.

So that's my take, if you really wish to evangelize you need some new strategies. You need to communicate for real. quantitatively or qualitatively.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Joe
Am I evil?

Not at all. I don't think there is anything necessarily wrong with wanting material things or wanting better for yourself.

I confess too: I want a PS2. I want a 2002 VW Jetta, fully loaded. I want an iMac. I think we're all guilty of being materialistic at one point or another. And I don't think we should be ashamed for thinking that way. When I go into a store to buy a new shirt, I'm not really thinking, "Hey, did a 5-year old in a dump factory in Thailand make this shirt, getting paid 5 cents an hour?" No, I'm thinking, "How much is this, and will it fit?" It's nearly impossible to try and take all that into consideration, when I've got 9 million things on my mind (as do most others).

There are some "betterment" things that cross my mind more than others: I won't buy an SUV, b/c I think they're too big and get horrible gas mileage (not only hurting my pocketbook, but the environment). I don't litter b/c I hate seeing trash strewn about, plus I don't want to pay a fine.

We're only human in the end.

[jaguar]

Oh I just *have* to weigh into this one.

I'm not going to get into Darwinism here; rather, I'm just going to say that blaming the western world for all problems is silly and counter-productive.

The point is that first world lifestyles currant - are unsustainable, allot of things about it are unsustainable. Our economic model requires constant expansion, a bit like a bloated pyramid scheme (joking), and when that stops, we get into very hot water till lit all falls over enough to get back on its feet. The environmental impact is unbelievably destructive, and without major changes is going to truly fuck us up .There are about 10 listed "damocean swords", disasters waiting to happen that could knock out serious percentages of the words food production capacity, not to mention existing toxic waste sites, destruction of farmland by overfertilisation, salination of land (hug problem here, greenhouse effect (and please don't argue it doesn't exist, nearly every credible scientific body in the world agrees on this) , destruction of the worlds "carbon sinks" (Amazon etc), the list goes on and on.

As for the consumerist attitudes, that’s much more complicated. It is social conditioning to want this shit, whatever it is 9im' not saying I’m immune by a long shot), it’s a bit of a vicious cycle though. We are working longer and longer hours - for what? Overtime pay? Promotion? So we can buy a bigger house? Get the kinds the playstation 2 for Christmas? Or in my girlfriend’s father’s case, buy a $20,000 home theater to beat the neighbor’s $10,000 one (I’m not making that up - its bloody nice too, I’m not complaining , we make of the growing spiritual void in our lives with material object. Your marriage falling apart? Buy more shit, I’m privileged enough to watch this in about 5-6 friends families.

"And YES, that is harsh." Not really. You're giving yourself too much credit here. Stop trying to sound all insightful - you're not Yoda, for fuck's sake, and when you talk like that, it does nothing to help get your message across - instead, it makes you sounds like an idiot.

I would agree with that though.

I'm defending their choice to come to America and live it up.

Now you sound just as stupid....Sure, we'll just let all the third world come to the first world...that’s realistic, that’s anywhere near the truth, plehease.... In australia for example we take refugees that wash up on our shores and lock them up in camps in the middle of the desert until they go stark raving mad which we then use as an excuse to deport them. Inbetween we sing the national anthum "for those who come across the seas we've boundless plains to spare"

Don't lose the passion, Free Spirit. Just take your time to learn what's going on in the world (sweatshops included).

Next time I go to Vietnam (not going this year ) ill bring back some piccies of the Nike sweatshops..

quote:
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Originally posted by FreeYourself
A man driven by numbers and dollar signs needs just that to convince him elsewise.
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Tee hee! You're so cute when you make shit up!

I love you.

Not everything can be proved with facts, numbers, statistics you know. What statistic can there be for these things? The average love index for New York in Q3 2001? Humanity doesn't produce many statistics I’m afraid.

edit - aded a little and spellchecked so its legible, sorry juju, i usually do for the long posts