religion and relationships

Number 2 Pencil · 09-10-2008, 02:39 AM

Hello folks! Wow, this turned out to be a long post. It's three in the morning and I can't sleep.

To my girlfriend, who I love dearly, religion seems pretty simple... believe in Jesus and you are saved and get to this place called heaven... seems easy enough. No need for deeds, just believe. How did she fall in love with me is beyond me. I'm an ex-Catholic who is wandering around the agnostic zones maybe about to stray into Universal Unitarianism or maybe into atheism (or maybe both or neither or whatever). How I fell in love with her is beyond me too. So far we make it work.

What's weird is that when we get talking about Christianity, I still argue with a Jesuit tongue against her Protestant viewpoint- words and deeds get you places, faith alone ain't much. But that is sort of a vestigial instinctive lashing out from who I used to be as a Catholic. (isn't life amazing without that thing called GUILT?)

I am going to hell anyway I argue about it... at least unless I join forced with this Jesus guy again, though it would have to be in a different way than I used to because I sure wasn't doing it right when I used to be Catholic... so she says.

But I feel like when I left the Jesus camp, I came out of this little box into a really big place, and i don't want to go back.

It kinda sucks to have an SO that thinks that I am going to hell when I die. But i can live with that. Oddly enough, it isn't a big issue. But when we talk about me, Mr Pencil, tying the knot with her, Ms PaperMate, and later raising little writing implements of our very own, I get a just a little worried.

Long discussions and, in some ways, negotiations, come up when we talk about religion and having kids. I don't mind my kids learning about Jesus or being baptized, but learning about hell isn't my cup of tea and it seems important to her (it is where nonbelievers go, GAH!). And I really would want them to learn about other faiths as well, including NO faith. I figure as long as I can teach the kids about science, skepticism, and rationalist, they can figure out the parts of traditional religion that work or don't work for themselves.

Don't get me started on the Rapture, or the age of the universe.

Are there any interfaith couples out there that have found a way to succeed?

Aliantha · 09-10-2008, 03:27 AM

My husband doesn't believe in any God or that the human body has a spirit or anything like that. He believes we're simply biological organisms and when we die we just don't exist anymore. I on the other hand believe we've all got a soul which departs the body when we die however, I don't class myself as religious even though I am officially catholic.

We don't really talk too much about death though, and each of us seems happy enough to let the other have their beliefs without the need to force them on the other.

Sometimes I think the whole point of religion is lost when it comes to different beliefs within a relationship.

eta: I think part of the reason we don't argue about our individual beliefs is because neither of us can prove our argument, so there can never be a winner.

I wonder what that says about us as a couple. lol

Trilby · 09-10-2008, 04:52 AM

I was raised a Catholic (schools and all) but never went back after graduation. I married a Lutheran (Wisconsin synod, I believe) and HIS parents were (are) rabid anti-Papists with a pure, true hatred of "idolotrists" like us Catholics (Mary and all, you know). Even though I had NO fond feelings for the Church, I really couldn't stand them putting my entire family down with the hellfire and damnation bit. It certainly helped to dissolve the marriage. Even though I didn't practice, I would NOT convert, so I was the enemy---plain and simple in their eyes.

Proceed with caution.

Number 2 Pencil · 09-10-2008, 01:13 PM

Thank you for the warning Brianna, I can see where you are coming from. You are right when you mention relatives being an issue in the relationship. However, they are going to be far away in another state, so the part that worries me is if I end up presenting my faith too differently from theirs then they might pressure my girlfriend to break with me and give her grief and guilt for being with me.

Aliantha, it seems you have established some sort of 'agree to disagree' when it comes to the difference between your faith and your hubby's. While it may turn out that the best way for me and my gf to deal with our differences is to 'live and let live', what can break that down is that sometimes I itch to argue about things even if they have no solution. I have to be a little careful with that habit.

wolf · 09-10-2008, 03:20 PM

I am a witch.

My boyfriend is a Calvinist Christian.

We each respect what the other does.

I appreciate the sincerity of his belief, as he does mine.

I join him in mealtime grace, we each offer prayers.

We each learn from the other about our faith-paths.

He does step back from active participation in anything that conflicts with his beliefs (no chanting around the fire, for example), but neither of us pushes the other.

Religion is part of what defines us as individuals, but not the relationship.

Flint · 09-10-2008, 03:34 PM

Good answer. The deeper commitment you have to your discipline, the deeper well of understanding you should be able to draw on in your dealings with others.

It's the amateurs that can't see past their own shabbily-constructed comfort zone.

Clodfobble · 09-10-2008, 06:14 PM

Understanding your significant other is all well and good.

It's having the kids that causes problems. Most people can't make the "Mommy believes this, while Daddy believes that" work very well.

Aliantha · 09-10-2008, 06:21 PM

We will be having this child I'm carrying baptised catholic. The way it works for us is that if you don't believe in God, then what harm can there be in splashing a bit of water on the babys' head, and if you do believe in God, then it's just part of the process.

The reason we'd choose catholic is more as a matter of tradition than out of any particular belief in the catholic doctrine. Both Daryl and i were baptised catholic as babies, and my two boys were also, so it makes sense as a family unit to continue in the same light.

Number 2 Pencil · 09-10-2008, 06:40 PM

Yep, between her and me there isn't much of an issue, we respect each other and our boundaries. Kids are the rub and it would take careful consideration of each other's beliefs. My gf wants them to go to Sunday School, which I don't mind as long as I screen who it is that does the teaching.

Griff · 09-10-2008, 07:47 PM

Brilliant opening post. Nothing like a Catholic education to innoculate against (other) nonsense.

You'll need to consider whether your SO will be more or less accomodating over time. A lot of people get more restricted in their thinking as they age and if she thinks you're gonna burn how much emotional leeway will that leave her with her children's souls?

Number 2 Pencil · 09-10-2008, 08:48 PM

I don't quite understand my gf's thinking that can be summarized as: I love you but won't get to spend forever with you because you go to the bad place and I don't. That is a strange way to think it seems to me, but I have this idea that like some people of faith, logic shuts down when circling certain topics. I remember that clearly from my years as a die-hard blow-hard. (and it humbles me to wonder what blind-spots I still have or have picked up that I don't know about)

I don't know if she would become more closed-minded with time. She seems instead to be trending towards become more open-minded in the time that I have know her. But I see certain lines that cannot be crossed, and I wonder about such kinds of limitations.

And, as far as Catholics (Jesuits especially) go, they are reasonably open minded and logical about most things, like science and other religions... except, of course, for contraception and choice (even though their view has its own internally consistent logic which I bought into for way too long), but then those two points are among the reasons that I'm not Catholic any more.

This weekend (starting thursday, w00t) I am going on vacation with my girlfriend for a few days, while I don't want to bring up delicate issues during playtime, I do want to have some serious conversation time when we discuss the future. It would break my heart to discover some sort of dealbreaking issue, but now is a much better time to discover it than a year from now. And, hopefully, if we understand each other better, maybe some of the problems of child rearing can be discussed and dealt with with plenty of anticipation (and I mean plenty, as I don't see kids in the near future, I don't see having kids for at least a few more years)

Wolf, your position as a pagan paired with a christian is fascinating. It sounds like both of you talk a lot to each other about what each of you believe, and you are comfortable with each other. Sometimes it seems my gf is not comfortable with my confusing mix of beliefs, and that saddens me because I want to explore them and discuss them. Let me see how this weekend goes.

monster · 09-10-2008, 09:56 PM

I'm an atheist and I believe I would find it impossible to have a relationship with a god-botherer of any denomination. Fortunately I fell for another atheist.

SteveDallas · 09-10-2008, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Number 2 Pencil

I don't know if she would become more closed-minded with time. She seems instead to be trending towards become more open-minded in the time that I have know her. But I see certain lines that cannot be crossed, and I wonder about such kinds of limitations.

The problem will come if she, now or later, decides that her faith requires her to convert you. (Of course this is only a specific instance of the old "I don't like X about my partner, but it's OK, I'll be able to convince them to change after we're married.)

xoxoxoBruce · 09-11-2008, 12:55 AM

The groom thinks the bride won't change.
The bride thinks the groom will change.
They're both wrong.

Number 2 Pencil · 09-14-2008, 11:31 PM

I had a great weekend vacation and I'm back home now (ugh). Talking with my girlfriend, I brought up the idea of hell, and it she say, she can't judge me, and it is between me and God any issues I have.

We talked quite a bit, and I am reaffirmed in believing that this relationship can work, as long as we talk about things.

09-10-2008, 02:39 AM	#1
Number 2 Pencil Not too hard, not too soft Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Next to a yapping dog Posts: 75	religion and relationships Hello folks! Wow, this turned out to be a long post. It's three in the morning and I can't sleep. To my girlfriend, who I love dearly, religion seems pretty simple... believe in Jesus and you are saved and get to this place called heaven... seems easy enough. No need for deeds, just believe. How did she fall in love with me is beyond me. I'm an ex-Catholic who is wandering around the agnostic zones maybe about to stray into Universal Unitarianism or maybe into atheism (or maybe both or neither or whatever). How I fell in love with her is beyond me too. So far we make it work. What's weird is that when we get talking about Christianity, I still argue with a Jesuit tongue against her Protestant viewpoint- words and deeds get you places, faith alone ain't much. But that is sort of a vestigial instinctive lashing out from who I used to be as a Catholic. (isn't life amazing without that thing called GUILT?) I am going to hell anyway I argue about it... at least unless I join forced with this Jesus guy again, though it would have to be in a different way than I used to because I sure wasn't doing it right when I used to be Catholic... so she says. But I feel like when I left the Jesus camp, I came out of this little box into a really big place, and i don't want to go back. It kinda sucks to have an SO that thinks that I am going to hell when I die. But i can live with that. Oddly enough, it isn't a big issue. But when we talk about me, Mr Pencil, tying the knot with her, Ms PaperMate, and later raising little writing implements of our very own, I get a just a little worried. Long discussions and, in some ways, negotiations, come up when we talk about religion and having kids. I don't mind my kids learning about Jesus or being baptized, but learning about hell isn't my cup of tea and it seems important to her (it is where nonbelievers go, GAH!). And I really would want them to learn about other faiths as well, including NO faith. I figure as long as I can teach the kids about science, skepticism, and rationalist, they can figure out the parts of traditional religion that work or don't work for themselves. Don't get me started on the Rapture, or the age of the universe. Are there any interfaith couples out there that have found a way to succeed? __________________ Is all that we see or seem But a dream within a dream? -Poe

09-10-2008, 03:27 AM	#2
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	My husband doesn't believe in any God or that the human body has a spirit or anything like that. He believes we're simply biological organisms and when we die we just don't exist anymore. I on the other hand believe we've all got a soul which departs the body when we die however, I don't class myself as religious even though I am officially catholic. We don't really talk too much about death though, and each of us seems happy enough to let the other have their beliefs without the need to force them on the other. Sometimes I think the whole point of religion is lost when it comes to different beliefs within a relationship. eta: I think part of the reason we don't argue about our individual beliefs is because neither of us can prove our argument, so there can never be a winner. I wonder what that says about us as a couple. lol __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber Last edited by Aliantha; 09-10-2008 at 03:50 AM.

09-10-2008, 04:52 AM	#3
Trilby Slattern of the Swail Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 15,654	I was raised a Catholic (schools and all) but never went back after graduation. I married a Lutheran (Wisconsin synod, I believe) and HIS parents were (are) rabid anti-Papists with a pure, true hatred of "idolotrists" like us Catholics (Mary and all, you know). Even though I had NO fond feelings for the Church, I really couldn't stand them putting my entire family down with the hellfire and damnation bit. It certainly helped to dissolve the marriage. Even though I didn't practice, I would NOT convert, so I was the enemy---plain and simple in their eyes. Proceed with caution. __________________ In Barrie's play and novel, the roles of fairies are brief: they are allies to the Lost Boys, the source of fairy dust and ...They are portrayed as dangerous, whimsical and extremely clever but quite hedonistic. "Shall I give you a kiss?" Peter asked and, jerking an acorn button off his coat, solemnly presented it to her. —James Barrie Wimminfolk they be tricksy. - ZenGum

09-10-2008, 01:13 PM	#4
Number 2 Pencil Not too hard, not too soft Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Next to a yapping dog Posts: 75	Thank you for the warning Brianna, I can see where you are coming from. You are right when you mention relatives being an issue in the relationship. However, they are going to be far away in another state, so the part that worries me is if I end up presenting my faith too differently from theirs then they might pressure my girlfriend to break with me and give her grief and guilt for being with me. Aliantha, it seems you have established some sort of 'agree to disagree' when it comes to the difference between your faith and your hubby's. While it may turn out that the best way for me and my gf to deal with our differences is to 'live and let live', what can break that down is that sometimes I itch to argue about things even if they have no solution. I have to be a little careful with that habit. __________________ Is all that we see or seem But a dream within a dream? -Poe

09-10-2008, 03:20 PM	#5
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	I am a witch. My boyfriend is a Calvinist Christian. We each respect what the other does. I appreciate the sincerity of his belief, as he does mine. I join him in mealtime grace, we each offer prayers. We each learn from the other about our faith-paths. He does step back from active participation in anything that conflicts with his beliefs (no chanting around the fire, for example), but neither of us pushes the other. Religion is part of what defines us as individuals, but not the relationship. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

09-10-2008, 03:34 PM	#6
Flint Snowflake Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Dystopia Posts: 13,136	Good answer. The deeper commitment you have to your discipline, the deeper well of understanding you should be able to draw on in your dealings with others. It's the amateurs that can't see past their own shabbily-constructed comfort zone. __________________ **************** There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio**

09-10-2008, 06:14 PM	#7
Clodfobble UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Austin, TX Posts: 20,012	Understanding your significant other is all well and good. It's having the kids that causes problems. Most people can't make the "Mommy believes this, while Daddy believes that" work very well. __________________ My book My other book My spirit animal

09-10-2008, 06:21 PM	#8
Aliantha trying hard to be a better person Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Brisbane, Australia Posts: 16,493	We will be having this child I'm carrying baptised catholic. The way it works for us is that if you don't believe in God, then what harm can there be in splashing a bit of water on the babys' head, and if you do believe in God, then it's just part of the process. The reason we'd choose catholic is more as a matter of tradition than out of any particular belief in the catholic doctrine. Both Daryl and i were baptised catholic as babies, and my two boys were also, so it makes sense as a family unit to continue in the same light. __________________ Kind words are the music of the world. F. W. Faber

09-10-2008, 06:40 PM	#9
Number 2 Pencil Not too hard, not too soft Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Next to a yapping dog Posts: 75	Yep, between her and me there isn't much of an issue, we respect each other and our boundaries. Kids are the rub and it would take careful consideration of each other's beliefs. My gf wants them to go to Sunday School, which I don't mind as long as I screen who it is that does the teaching. __________________ Is all that we see or seem But a dream within a dream? -Poe

09-10-2008, 07:47 PM	#10
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Brilliant opening post. Nothing like a Catholic education to innoculate against (other) nonsense. You'll need to consider whether your SO will be more or less accomodating over time. A lot of people get more restricted in their thinking as they age and if she thinks you're gonna burn how much emotional leeway will that leave her with her children's souls? __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

09-10-2008, 08:48 PM	#11
Number 2 Pencil Not too hard, not too soft Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Next to a yapping dog Posts: 75	I don't quite understand my gf's thinking that can be summarized as: I love you but won't get to spend forever with you because you go to the bad place and I don't. That is a strange way to think it seems to me, but I have this idea that like some people of faith, logic shuts down when circling certain topics. I remember that clearly from my years as a die-hard blow-hard. (and it humbles me to wonder what blind-spots I still have or have picked up that I don't know about) I don't know if she would become more closed-minded with time. She seems instead to be trending towards become more open-minded in the time that I have know her. But I see certain lines that cannot be crossed, and I wonder about such kinds of limitations. And, as far as Catholics (Jesuits especially) go, they are reasonably open minded and logical about most things, like science and other religions... except, of course, for contraception and choice (even though their view has its own internally consistent logic which I bought into for way too long), but then those two points are among the reasons that I'm not Catholic any more. This weekend (starting thursday, w00t) I am going on vacation with my girlfriend for a few days, while I don't want to bring up delicate issues during playtime, I do want to have some serious conversation time when we discuss the future. It would break my heart to discover some sort of dealbreaking issue, but now is a much better time to discover it than a year from now. And, hopefully, if we understand each other better, maybe some of the problems of child rearing can be discussed and dealt with with plenty of anticipation (and I mean plenty, as I don't see kids in the near future, I don't see having kids for at least a few more years) Wolf, your position as a pagan paired with a christian is fascinating. It sounds like both of you talk a lot to each other about what each of you believe, and you are comfortable with each other. Sometimes it seems my gf is not comfortable with my confusing mix of beliefs, and that saddens me because I want to explore them and discuss them. Let me see how this weekend goes. __________________ Is all that we see or seem But a dream within a dream? -Poe

09-10-2008, 09:56 PM	#12
monster I hear them call the tide Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Perpetual Chaos Posts: 30,852	I'm an atheist and I believe I would find it impossible to have a relationship with a god-botherer of any denomination. Fortunately I fell for another atheist. __________________ The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity Amelia Earhart

09-11-2008, 12:55 AM	#14
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	The groom thinks the bride won't change. The bride thinks the groom will change. They're both wrong. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

09-14-2008, 11:31 PM	#15
Number 2 Pencil Not too hard, not too soft Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Next to a yapping dog Posts: 75	I had a great weekend vacation and I'm back home now (ugh). Talking with my girlfriend, I brought up the idea of hell, and it she say, she can't judge me, and it is between me and God any issues I have. We talked quite a bit, and I am reaffirmed in believing that this relationship can work, as long as we talk about things. __________________ Is all that we see or seem But a dream within a dream? -Poe

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)