9/11 Remembrance

elSicomoro · 03-11-2002, 07:53 PM

The news has been plastered with remembrances of 9/11 all day...actually, it started Friday.

I fully realize that this may have been the single most notable event in US history. I realize that almost 3000 people died. But why IS such a big deal being made of the six-month anniversary? I myself didn't see any outgoing remembrances of the anniversary around me (though I only work with 300 people). Am I just an unpatriotic asshole American?

Thoughts?

jaguar · 03-11-2002, 10:15 PM

good excuse to sell more flags
ah......the cynical force is stong in me today

-----
*young* countires, US, Australia comes to mind, don't have particualry much history, so they cling much harder to what they do have. America is also distrubingly patriotic.

verbatim · 03-12-2002, 11:11 AM

Good point, jag, but I dont think thats always true. Not that it isnt right, but remember Britian during WWII? They were diehard patriotic. Evenmore so than we are now. They have a *ton* to cling on to.

But a personal feeling about all this patriotism: the more I see it and hear about it, the more it makes me want to move out of the country to Canada or Australia or such. And this "war on terrorism" is crap, its just giving us an excuse to run the middle east as we see fit. But hey, thats politics.

03-12-2002, 11:19 AM

Yes, it probably isn't doing anything to eradicate al Qaeda and attempting, by force, to keep terrorist attacks from happening again. It's just giving us an excuse to run the Middle East...

Why don't you move to Canada? That way our military doesn't need to waste its efforts protecting a person that has no faith in it.

Undertoad · 03-12-2002, 12:31 PM

Man, you ARE irritable today! Anyway, most of the Canucks I've known are just as patriotic. Meanwhile...

"My country right or wrong."
[x] Strongly disagree
[ ] Disagree
[ ] Agree
[ ] Strongly agree

"My country is more often right than wrong."
[ ] Strongly disagree
[ ] Disagree
[x] Agree
[ ] Strongly agree

"My country is right this time."
[ ] Strongly disagree
[ ] Disagree
[ ] Agree
[x] Strongly agree

Clutz · 03-12-2002, 01:39 PM

Quote:

"most of the Canucks I've known are just as patriotic"

Canadians (myself included) are patriotic, but can hardly be mentioned in the same breath as the United States. Canadian patriotism relies heavily on our national identity as "winter people" (see: Canada's hockey gold medal sweep), but is not nearly as strong as the egotistical "we are the best" type of attitude displayed by the United States.
The United States patriotism is in its military. Far different from Canadians who are far more critical of our national government (see: OSI, the shadow government, or bush's approval rating) which would hardly be acceptable in Canadian society.

Not trying to bash the Americans,

please don't invade us

Griff · 03-12-2002, 02:52 PM

But we are the best.

Undertoad · 03-12-2002, 03:27 PM

So what you're saying there is that Canadians are patriotic about good things while USians are patriotic about stupid things.

No, I know that's not really what you're saying...

Here's what happened, I think. I think the US does not value some of the aspects of its culture that make it special, because it is not aware that those things are not universal.

For instance, the US should be extremely patriotic about an incredible individualist/entrepreneurial spirit, which has led to a very long period of incredible development, bringing the world into a new era. But your average USian is not patriotic about that, because they grew up in it and are not really aware of it.

Part of that is because it's so damn big that it's easy to sink into your own culture and not care about what the rest of the world is doing.

Part of that is also because the US is so open that it winds up assimilating the best cultural aspects of its immigrants.

Also, the US has enabled its average people more than most other cultures, I think. The US is famous for its lowbrow culture, but that reflects the first middle class with such enormous buying power. The educated elite may not like "Everybody Loves Raymond", but the average people do, so into the culture mill it goes.

Through that enabling, the underclass has rewarded the culture with deep contributions. In music, for example, blues, rock-n-roll, rock, hip hop -- all come from the underclass and work their way up, rather than music being funded and chosen by a small upperclass and spoon-fed to the masses if at all.

But when you run patriotism through that same process, what happens? We allow our patriotism to be defined by the common man, and that means that it sometimes has a simple feeling. And maybe that feeling is TOO simple. And sure, it means we get a roar from the crowd when we kick somebody's ass.

(Oh brother... somebody hit my pseudo-intellectual switch today.)

elSicomoro · 03-12-2002, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Clutz
The United States patriotism is in its military. Far different from Canadians who are far more critical of our national government (see: OSI, the shadow government, or bush's approval rating) which would hardly be acceptable in Canadian society.

Canada's power is more centered in its provinces, right? So I can understand why Canadians might be more critical of their national government than we are (at least right now).

I have to give props to Dubya (Hell has now frozen over.) for something he has said on a regular basis since all this went down: Be patient. Sure, I think it sucks that our troops have been over there for almost 6 months now, but as Americans, we can be so damned impatient. Especially younger Americans. We didn't live through 10+ years of Vietnam or a 6-year World War.

When I mentioned the whole big to-do over 9/11 to my boss, she mentioned that it could be our way of staying vigilant over what happened. That makes some sense to me, and I agree with the "twin tower lights" that went on last night, but I just feel that this hoopla is better reserved for the year remembrance in September. I wish I could put a real thought on it, but this whole thing just gave me an off-putting vibe...too soon maybe? *shrugs* And if this is what happened for 6 months, imagine how crazy it will be IN September.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to work on my personal Sycamore alert system.

Nic Name · 03-12-2002, 04:41 PM

Perhaps what is off-putting about the six month anniversary rememberances is that they are timed to stir up anger and thirst for vengeance and to bolster support for a wider military response, rather than to remember the victims, whom nobody has forgotten these past six months.

Many of those who lost family in the attack did not want this six month remembrance day, and many expressed an aversion to the images being replayed so soon.

Yet, the government needed to keep the pain near the surface for the military agenda.

But I could be completely wrong, again.

03-12-2002, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nic Name
Perhaps what is off-putting about the six month anniversary rememberances is that they are timed to stir up anger and thirst for vengeance and to bolster support for a wider military response...

Yes, their timing had nothing to do with it being the half-year anniversary of the fucking incident.

Clutz · 03-12-2002, 07:01 PM

while im impressed with your ability to swear, you don't really have an argument. no doubt we will remember sept. 11, each and every year for the rest of our lives on 9/11.
But March 11 has no signifigance, the "hoop la" display should have been reserved for the 1 year aniversary.

Nic Name · 03-12-2002, 07:17 PM

Americans divided on holiday. Petitions are being circulated for annual holiday to remember September 11, says USA Today.

No mention of March 11, or suggestion of a semi-annual remembrance.

elSicomoro · 03-12-2002, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nic Name
Perhaps what is off-putting about the six month anniversary rememberances is that they are timed to stir up anger and thirst for vengeance and to bolster support for a wider military response, rather than to remember the victims, whom nobody has forgotten these past six months.

Well, I don't know if I'd go THAT far...

But I do agree with part of what you said. It has to be kept fresh in people's minds. It's a given right now that there is going to be SOMETHING about 9/11 or the "War on Terror" on the evening news. For that matter, it has become a basic part of the evening news, right along with sports and weather. And maybe this is where an Office of Strategic Influence MIGHT have been useful.

03-12-2002, 08:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Clutz
while im impressed with your ability to swear, you don't really have an argument. no doubt we will remember sept. 11, each and every year for the rest of our lives on 9/11.
But March 11 has no signifigance, the "hoop la" display should have been reserved for the 1 year aniversary.

You are missing the point.

It was, from his original post, Nic Name's contention that everything yesterday was "timed to stir up anger and thirst for vengeance and to bolster support for a wider military response". Is it just a <b>coincidence</b> that it's on the half-year anniversary of September 11th?

Have you ever been in a relationship that lasted more than a year? When it was first starting, did you find yourself (or your s/o) marking the one month, two month, three month aniversary? Six months? All the way up to a year? There's something about being able to say "wow, it's been half a year already." I'm guessing that we will *not* see the same thing a year from yesterday. Six months is a milestone. 18 isn't. That's just the way it is.

Yesterday's activities happened because it's been six months since September 11. Not because the US needed to stir up anger and thirst for vengeance. To suggest that is absurd.

03-11-2002, 07:53 PM	#1
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	9/11 Remembrance The news has been plastered with remembrances of 9/11 all day...actually, it started Friday. I fully realize that this may have been the single most notable event in US history. I realize that almost 3000 people died. But why IS such a big deal being made of the six-month anniversary? I myself didn't see any outgoing remembrances of the anniversary around me (though I only work with 300 people). Am I just an unpatriotic asshole American? Thoughts?

03-11-2002, 10:15 PM	#2
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	good excuse to sell more flags ah......the cynical force is stong in me today ----- young countires, US, Australia comes to mind, don't have particualry much history, so they cling much harder to what they do have. America is also distrubingly patriotic. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

03-12-2002, 11:11 AM	#3
verbatim Vice-President of Resentment Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Pennsultucky Posts: 199	Good point, jag, but I dont think thats always true. Not that it isnt right, but remember Britian during WWII? They were diehard patriotic. Evenmore so than we are now. They have a ton to cling on to. But a personal feeling about all this patriotism: the more I see it and hear about it, the more it makes me want to move out of the country to Canada or Australia or such. And this "war on terrorism" is crap, its just giving us an excuse to run the middle east as we see fit. But hey, thats politics. __________________ <-- I'm with stupid

03-12-2002, 07:01 PM	#12
Clutz Alphabetarian Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Toronto.ca Posts: 12	while im impressed with your ability to swear, you don't really have an argument. no doubt we will remember sept. 11, each and every year for the rest of our lives on 9/11. But March 11 has no signifigance, the "hoop la" display should have been reserved for the 1 year aniversary. __________________ Go Big, or Go Home

03-12-2002, 11:19 AM	#4
dave Guest Posts: n/a	Yes, it probably isn't doing anything to eradicate al Qaeda and attempting, by force, to keep terrorist attacks from happening again. It's just giving us an excuse to run the Middle East... Why don't you move to Canada? That way our military doesn't need to waste its efforts protecting a person that has no faith in it.

03-12-2002, 12:31 PM	#5
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Man, you ARE irritable today! Anyway, most of the Canucks I've known are just as patriotic. Meanwhile... "My country right or wrong." [x] Strongly disagree [ ] Disagree [ ] Agree [ ] Strongly agree "My country is more often right than wrong." [ ] Strongly disagree [ ] Disagree [x] Agree [ ] Strongly agree "My country is right this time." [ ] Strongly disagree [ ] Disagree [ ] Agree [x] Strongly agree

03-12-2002, 02:52 PM	#7
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	But we are the best.

03-12-2002, 03:27 PM	#8
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	So what you're saying there is that Canadians are patriotic about good things while USians are patriotic about stupid things. No, I know that's not really what you're saying... Here's what happened, I think. I think the US does not value some of the aspects of its culture that make it special, because it is not aware that those things are not universal. For instance, the US should be extremely patriotic about an incredible individualist/entrepreneurial spirit, which has led to a very long period of incredible development, bringing the world into a new era. But your average USian is not patriotic about that, because they grew up in it and are not really aware of it. Part of that is because it's so damn big that it's easy to sink into your own culture and not care about what the rest of the world is doing. Part of that is also because the US is so open that it winds up assimilating the best cultural aspects of its immigrants. Also, the US has enabled its average people more than most other cultures, I think. The US is famous for its lowbrow culture, but that reflects the first middle class with such enormous buying power. The educated elite may not like "Everybody Loves Raymond", but the average people do, so into the culture mill it goes. Through that enabling, the underclass has rewarded the culture with deep contributions. In music, for example, blues, rock-n-roll, rock, hip hop -- all come from the underclass and work their way up, rather than music being funded and chosen by a small upperclass and spoon-fed to the masses if at all. But when you run patriotism through that same process, what happens? We allow our patriotism to be defined by the common man, and that means that it sometimes has a simple feeling. And maybe that feeling is TOO simple. And sure, it means we get a roar from the crowd when we kick somebody's ass. (Oh brother... somebody hit my pseudo-intellectual switch today.)

03-12-2002, 04:41 PM	#10
Nic Name retired Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,930	Perhaps what is off-putting about the six month anniversary rememberances is that they are timed to stir up anger and thirst for vengeance and to bolster support for a wider military response, rather than to remember the victims, whom nobody has forgotten these past six months. Many of those who lost family in the attack did not want this six month remembrance day, and many expressed an aversion to the images being replayed so soon. Yet, the government needed to keep the pain near the surface for the military agenda. But I could be completely wrong, again.

03-12-2002, 07:17 PM	#13
Nic Name retired Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,930	Americans divided on holiday. Petitions are being circulated for annual holiday to remember September 11, says *USA Today*. No mention of March 11, or suggestion of a semi-annual remembrance.

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