8/26/2002 extra: Palestinian youth

[BruteForce]

Because of legalities of because its mindnumbingly stupid? I woudl have thought since you're so worked up about schoolyard fights in the 60's you see why it was not such a wise idea.

Jag, you are missing the entire point. It isn't about kids carrying guns, it's about kids being taught responsibility and how to make wise decisions. The modern education system seeks to shelter children to the point of suffocation and so it falls to the parents for their complete upbringing. Unfortunately, most parents rely on the Federal Daycare System (read: public education) to do their job of raising those children. Hmmm.

The only role models most kids have is whoever is playing in the CD player. Great, now we have Ludicras (or whatever he calls himself) and various other artists teaching our kids what is right and wrong. So why are we suprised when we have incidents like Columbine?

It's a vicious f'in cycle where everyone blames someone else and the only people getting hurt are the kids.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by jaguar
Because of legalities of because its mindnumbingly stupid? I woudl have thought since you're so worked up about schoolyard fights in the 60's you see why it was not such a wise idea.

Because I know what levels of responsibility kids are capable of, and at what ages, having raised a few myself.

I was making a parody of the line 'its all fun and games till someone loses an eye' Clearly we are currantly flying at 30,000 feet above Maggies head.

"We"? You have a tapeworm now?:-)

Look, this is another case of your "firearmed" coinage. You harbor this illusion that firearms as weapons represents something radically different in kind rather than in degree from other weapons and sorts of violence.

Violence and abuse between children is a very serious issue...and one reason there are incidents like Columbine is ignoring the issue until something dramatic happens, such as the use of firearms.

Violent emotion can kill with or without firearms, and fomenting violence and countenancing hatred, whether in an American (or Australian) schoolyard or in a Palestinian camp is the core. You allow yourself to be distracted by the "evil" of one instrumentality of violence, and thus you miss the true point.

I'm not "all worked up about it", Mr. Pot...so don't call that kerttle "black". After all...

I'm in a deabte, of course i'm going to use emotive language...It doesn't warrant anything substancial, its unsupported, hyperbolic bullshit designed to incite...

Oh, sorry. Thought you wanted to have a discussion. I can find "hyperbolic bullshit" anywhere. Talk is cheap, and garbled, incoherent flamage is even less valuable.

It's really a shame that you have grown up to this point beliving that debate consists of incitement and bullshit.. That's one reason I've been anticipating hopefully the first time you actually get formal instruction in debate, because true debate very different from simply dispensing flamage in a blog.

It seems you see no difference between another generation of Palastinian children being groomed to throw themsleves into the Intafadah meat grinder and the boy in the "a-human-rights" poster, being shown how to use a firearm without a pile of propaganda being shoved down his throat along with it--assuming the Palestinian boy *was* shown anything about his weapon besides where the bullets go in and which end to point at the Israelis, a proposition that the photo itself makes highly doubtful.

Again, there's a world of difference between being taught *how* to shoot and being indoctrinated in *who* to shoot, and how to make a human bomb of yourself, from the cradle onwards. The photos Tony's been posting make a point about this practice, and now clearly the Palestinians have finally realized that when photos of this stuff hit the world press, it makes them look, very, very bad, just as the street celebrations after 9/11 did. "Hyperbolic bullshit" just doesn't play well, it seems.

That's not a difficult distinction to make, unless you're peddling ideas that won't stand unless supported by "hyperbolic bullshit". You may not "give a f*ck" about training...but raising kids, and learning, *after* kids aren't kids anymore (a line you're only just about to cross yourself) is very, very importnant.

The values a kid absorbs early in life shapes them profoundly as a person. If you don't disinguish between being taught self-reliance and responsibility and the institutionalized inculcation of violent race hatred, we do indeed have little common ground for discussion, and might as well fling "hyperbolic bullshit" back and forth. That's clearly not worth your time nor mine.

My comments about the likely outcome of a negligent discharge in the case of the Palastinian boy are supported by the past behavior of the Palestinians: every child is a weapon, and every death a propaganda opportunity. You can dismiss that as "FUD" if you like; but that's not the meaning of the term as I use it.

But if all you can do when you have no point to make is bluster, I suppose you might as well. After all, it may be true that "Violent *language* is the last resort of the incompetant" too. :-)

[jaguar]

Jag, you are missing the entire point. It isn't about kids carrying guns, it's about kids being taught responsibility and how to make wise decisions.

There are better ways to do that IMHO than firearms training, without suffocating people. I'll deal with this further down.

Nice attempt to misquote me there, I'm going to ignore it. I'm also going to also ignore the obvious crap you pointed out, the verbal equalivant of trying to look someone down over horn-rimmed glasses. As well as that ill ignore all the wonderful tangents you lace your posts with, the not-particularly-subtle personal attacks on me and deal with the issue of this thread, the comparison I made between those two pictures.

I'm left with a much shorter post to deal with now I've sheared off the shit I must say.

Firstly, I don't believe firearms training is a good form of self reliance training and while it can be a way to train responsibility, I don't think it’s the best one. Self reliance? How about some useful skills (I don't think being about to hit a paper target in the head at 200m is a useful skill unless you're planning on becoming a merc), and independence instead. Pratical things oddly enough are far more useful.

This is getting dangerously close to in Isreali/Palastinian thread, what a nice way to whip up a shitstorm, combine gun control and that. Anyway....

While my original post was just a shot of light irony at them both having the same gun since its been taken so seriously and seems to virtually have become an extension of the other thread on this I may as well see it out now.

You seem to be saying that indoctrination into hatred is the enemy, not firearms. Fair enough. I assume therefore that the 'child abuse' heading this was originally posted with refers to this, not children having firearms in a training with military weaponry situation, as that is clearly ok according to you.

Glad we narrowed that down. Living in a country where the Attorney General is afraid of the female form I can understand you dislike of indoctrination, religious or otherwise. In that I agree, it’s not a good thing, I don't think indoctrinating kids into an insular culture of hate is a good thing, shock horror. I think that is about all I agree with you on.

Ciao

[juju]

You two are never going to agree on this.

[jaguar]

You're kidding me. :p

[juju]

Henceforth, I wish to be known as Juju, Bringer of Insight.

[elSicomoro]

No, you will be known as Mr. Fucking Obvious.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by juju
You two are never going to agree on this.

Question for Mr. F. Obvious:
Which "two of us" are you talking about? Jag and who else? He's been taking on all comers in this thread lately, then using an apparently editorial "we". Is it possible you don't think he'll agree with himself?

[juju]

Is this a rhetorical question?

[Nic Name]

Is that a rhetorical question?

[MaggieL]

<img src="http://www.cellar.org/attachment.php?postid=20823">

[jaguar]

Which "two of us" are you talking about? Jag and who else? He's been taking on all comers in this thread lately, then using an apparently editorial "we". Is it possible you don't think he'll agree with himself?

Hehehe. I started a long rant, answering everything you posted. Then deleted it, because I'm not going to be drawn into the quagmire you try to create to muddy any issue with as may personal asides as possible, my time is too valuable to reply to your crud anymore, back on the ignore list you go. That way i won't have to listen to a long personal assult including links to dictionary definitions of obscure usenet terms, types of arguement, styles of writing and the time of day.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by jaguar
Hehehe. I started a long rant, answering everything you posted. Then deleted it...

Ah! The Fermat defense!

Whatever gets you through the day. I hadn't realized "garbled" was a style.

[NateXLH1000]

Is it a pipe or isn't it?

Just tell me. This is really just pissing me off here.