Stepford patriotism

[Undertoad]

It's all a part of the ebb and flow. tattooedmind, if he is still with us, has now taken a set of lumps and if he has a thick enough skin, he'll stay around, get into the conversation, etc.

I have to be ever the diplomat. Even if we sit here and overanalyze someone to death, if it's all part of the learning process and the community process it's all good.

There was good to be found in his post and frankly it was a bit knee-jerk to say it was all due to age. When someone comes out and tells us (admits?) a personal aspect of themselves, it's probably unfair to attack on that point.

The HB gentle tutelage is part of the process and anyone whose been through it - if not from HB, from anyone else on the net - understands that.

[mbpark]

I agree with VSP here.

Suddenly people are realizing how good they have it here, as compared to places like Lebanon, Afghanistan, Jordan, or Egypt.

Meanwhile, I hate seeing patriotism being "cool". I like America because it's a country where we don't have people dying in the streets like India, or America 100 years ago. Read The Jungle to see what I mean by that. We have a lot more here in America than anyplace else. I speak to so many people from other countries, and have friends from other countries especially, and they'd love to have so much time in their native lands to worry about the president.

Most people in this world care about where their next meal is coming from, and don't worry about George W. Bush .

Most people want to be part of something that allows them to take out their aggressions. It's only natural. I saw a lot of this during the Gulf War, when people were taking out their aggression on Iraqis and Muslims. VSP comparing it to Cowboys fans at an Eagles game just sums it up for those of us from Philadelphia or who have spent time here.

I was driving around yesterday and saw many American flags on cars. The scary part is that I saw more Sixers flags on cars during the NBA finals.

It's cool to be a patriot now, apparently. Just like it was cool to cheer on AI during the playoffs.

Most people want to be detached from this situation.

Some of us have relatives working in that zone right now.

Meanwhile, we're arguing over the theoretical implications of this instead of doing something. VSP is right. It's cool for people to associate themselves with this, but not cool for them to do anything beyond face value.

This reminds me so much of late 1930's America, when everyone talked about Appeasement, especially Neville Chamberlain, and Anschluss, the Austrian-German unification of 1938.

During that era, we all talked about isolationism as well. We talked and talked, but did nothing.

Pearl Harbor changed that, because as the effects became clear, it because quite obvious that there are no innocents, and that everyone gets affected.

It took a little while, however America realized that everyone had to contribute. This attitude that we have is that of overconfidence.

Maybe it takes a few events like this for people to wake up out of their theoretical little world. Instead of just waving flags, we can do something. As someone who grew out of snotty kid into someone who knows that you can't ever categorize people, you can only work to do things to help others out.

There are no innocents. We can only do what we can to help others in existence.

Rant Off.

MBP

[Hubris Boy]

Originally posted by jaguar
Dare i ask what area of politics the Natoinal party lurks in in the US? Here is right wing farmers/rednecks/racists mostly...Their intelict is as barren as the land they scratch a living out of.

We don't really have an equivalent to the National Party here in the US. Maybe the yokels in the Reform Party... but they're not very big or well-organized. The closest thing we have would probably be the religious fundamentalist loonies in the Republican Party, and they're a minority. Most Republicans here would probably belong to the Liberal party if they lived in Australia.

Originally posted by jaguar
Don't think i'm elligible for the SAS - glasses.

Two words: Lasek Surgery. No excuses, dammit.

Originally posted by jaguar
Out of question hwo did you choose/end up with the name Hubris Boy?

It's a term of "endearment" from an old girlfriend a long time ago... You see, when I was MUCH younger, I decided it would be a good idea to go to Fort Benning, Georgia and spend three weeks there learning to jump out of airplanes. The young lady in question disagreed with this decision, and voiced her concern in no uncertain terms. She was probably right, but what did I know? I was only 22, immortal, and indestructible. I've since learned better, but I still like the name.

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by Hubris Boy
We don't really have an equivalent to the National Party here in the US. Maybe the yokels in the Reform Party... but they're not very big or well-organized.

And even when the Reform Party was well-organized, they were "Seinfeldian" at best: they wanted change, but their agenda never seemed clear. Then when Buchanan took control...well, we know the rest of the story. Given that their biggest claim-to-fame at one point was a former wrestler...

[jaguar]

So i assume you were talking about the national party here - a wing of the liberal party really.....along with the infamous one nation, i'm surpised you've heard of the national party?

Yea i've looked at laser. Might when i'm 18. But come on - you don't need perfect eyesight to fight a war - just use a computer to drop bombs, thats the american way right =p

We don't really have an equivilent here for the democrats, the labour party is far too union based, although its almost as right wing as the liberal party these days. Democrats here give loans to the morally bankrupt liberals and piss everyone off by having the deciding vote in the Senate.

You know this sites motto really should be -1 Offtopic

[Hubris Boy]

Originally posted by jaguar
But come on - you don't need perfect eyesight to fight a war - just use a computer to drop bombs, thats the american way right =p-1 Offtopic

Well... I wouldn't go THAT far. I still have to qualify with an M-16 every 6 months, just in case we get a buffer overflow in the middle of the battle. ;0

-1 Offtopic. That's for sure!

[jaguar]

I still have to qualify with an M-16 every 6 months

You military?

[tattooedmind]

im still here...i lost the site wen i went home over the weekend(i posted from my vocational computer class). i will post again my response wen i get home today. and dont worry, im a long way away from dropping out now cuz of some criticizm. ill just say expect a long message wen i get home.

until then, peace!

tattooedmind

[Hubris Boy]

Originally posted by jaguar

You military?

Only part-time these days, Jag. One weekend a month I get out of bed reeeeally early, put on a funny-looking outfit of assorted greens and browns, and assume my alternate identity as Major Hubris Boy, US Army Reserve.

Oh God... I'm going off on a tangent. Forgive me, Cellar Dwellars.

This past weekend was interesting because it was a drill weekend for my unit. The big topic of conversation (other than "Who do you think did it?") was "Do you think we're gonna be activated?" The general opinion is affirmative- based on the sound bites we've been hearing on the news from our political leaders, and the natural ability that all soldiers have to sense when their commanders aren't telling them something.

We may be wrong. We all hope so. The feeling around the battalion "clubhouse" was one of grim determination mixed with resignation. Don't believe the gung-ho crap you see in John Wayne movies: the quickest way to become a pacifist is to join the Army!

I'm pretty confident that I speak for most reservists when I say that I don't especially want to go. I've done it before. I spent 8 months in Kuwait back in '90-'91, and it isn't much fun. It's tough on the family, and it's a tremendous financial burden as well. All things considered, I'd rather stay home and read Harry Potter to my little girl.

We'll go if we have to, proudly and without complaint, because that's what we promised to do when we raised our right hands and took the oath. But we don't have to look forward to it, especially now...

It's a week after the attack and the shock and grief are starting to wear off. Suddenly, there are a lot of talk radio hosts, homespun foreign policy "experts" and drunks in bars barking about "sending in the Army", without thinking about the people who will actually have to go. Usually, the ones doing the barking are armchair warriors who've read a lot of Tom Clancy novels, but never felt the need to actually wear their country's uniform.

And that's fine. We don't mind. Really. We understand that military service isn't for everyone. But on behalf of all those who serve, let me make a request of any Cellar Dwellars who've managed to read this far: if you come across one of these bozos while they're mouthing off about sending in the military to clean up Afghanistan, do us a favor and tell them to shut the fuck up! You'll be serving your country well if you do. They're only fanning the flames of public opinion, and that's the last thing we need. There are lots of people who have better information and better training than these clowns. The real experts are busy trying to make the tough decisions right now, and they don't need help.

Thanks!

Love,
Hubris Boy, Major, MI
US Army Reserve

[tattooedmind]

ok so here we go...first ill start w/

tw-im not an extremist, im an anarchist, yes i curse a lot, so wut, and yes i completely understand wut vsp was saying and i wasnt trying to comment so much on wut he said as much as post my own feelings, and happen to see his and agree w/ it and felt that it was a good spot to post mine.

hubris boy-yes im very lazy at times, but wen i wanna be i can be all over. but thats besides the point. i might be stupid sometimes yes, but i am the most open-minded individual on the face of this planet which is why im so accepting of new ideas, including anarchy.

i dont get the whole thing w/ the library or wutever but owell.

i dont get picked on much by kids at skool, i have many friends and only really get shunned for my beleifs by the smaller group of political kids who only talk politics and wrestling and history, and they mean shit to me anyway.

i dont understand how my dad has anything to do w/ the pentagon. the pentagon being hit makes me happy whether i hate my dad or not.

ok...religious war...ya its happend in history...does dat make it rite or justified? absolutely not. 30 years from now...someones gonna say 'o hey they drove a plane into a building 30 years ago it must be ok to do it again' if we think like that. theres nuttin in my view as a religious war, a fight over god. a fight over land to worship god is disgusting. god does not want fighting. why cant they all just live together and worship on the same ground...we dont seem to have a problem w/ it.

on being different now and an anarchist. first off...the fact that im an anarchist ever is different...there arent many of us out there. so yes, i am different, i continue to be different and speak out. i'll not change my feelings and beliefs all of a sudden cuz everyone feels we need the govt now. ya we do the govt now, but if there was anarchy we wouldnt have gotten hit in the first place. im different and sorry for not tryin to fit in and be like everyone else in the world and just go through motions each and every day.

bush bein a cocksucker has wut to do w/ mtv or serena altshul? ya shes hot but i dont beleive everything from her, not to mention mtv sux anyway...its full of posers and wanna be rockstars. so thats completely irrelevant to the conversation.

its prejudice bastards like u who continually shun the world of kids and teens who will someday be running this god-awful fucking country, so maybe the older generation(older than us) should maybe start to respect the kids a little more than they do and realize we have shit to say sometimes too! i just hope u dont treat all kids the way u treat me, cuz u will end up gettin ur ass kicked someday wen ur an old man by some punk on the street dat u look at funny and then break a hip or have a heart attack.

now, onward to the next person.

nothing but net-honestly i hafta give ya credit...more credit than hubris at least...i had an answer to his comments, i dont htink i have quite near a response as i did for his, but i do have one thing. u call me innocent, well, im far from innocent, and i dont just make my calls on the fact that i dont like this country. i have a few reasons for that...ill give u a few examples. these are just small ones. lets take the clinton trial for perjury. wen the votes were taken whether to keep him in office or not, 90% of the senators(i beleive, unless it was the house, i dont remember) did not make their vote on the fact that he had committed a crime, but on the fact that he was democratic. the democrats voted to keep him in, republicans out, w/ a few exceptions. if they had voted based on their morals and by the law, clinton should have rightfully been removed from office. im glad he wasnt, cuz the fact that his personal life was brought into the court was something that shouldnt happen anyway. they should have left it alone. he lied to protect his family and his name. if he lied about some matter that was governmentally important, i can understand. but while the politicians bullshitted about him gettin a blowjob, there were things that were more important that could have been addressed.
next topic, the recounted votes. simple as this, if the people decide who wins the election, then why did bush win if gore had the popular vote. this country is not a country by the people for the people as it should be. ok enough on that...next person.

sycamore-u say sumthin that i hear from a lot of people wen they find out i beleive in anarchy. the fact that it is much worse in other countries. and im gonna say the same thing i tell them. yes i know it is. it is bad here, not quite as bad as other places, but i dont live in other places. i live here. i dont like it here. and i probably wouldnt like it anywhere. i am against all governments everywhere. not just the US. i simply lash out at the US becuz thats where i live and know the most about. i can more easily find flaws in something i know about than wut i dont know about. if i lived in another country i would probably just be doing the same only directing it more toward specifics that happend in that country. but i do get wut ur sayin.

jaguar-thats all they talk about in skool anymore. is how to avoid that stuff. and actually, i think thats part of the reason why theres so much of it. since the skool keeps trying to push it into us, some do it as a deliberate slap in the face just to say well im gonna do it just cuz u said not to.
i know i do sometimes ill admit it...i do a lot. but that really has nuttin to do w/ wut i was even talkin about...so...wutever...lol. next.

undertoad-i respect the fact that maybe yes it is due to my age, i will accept it as possible. it may be, but there is also a big chance that it may not be. we'll hafta see after i move out. (my mom also brings a good point that i think its only cuz of the fact i cant do so much at home. but i dont know...time will only tell lol).

one last thing to hubris boy-im sure u noticed already that i didnt want to send anyone in. i still respect u as a person and the fact that u r a little scared and everything. i dont agree much w/ the stuff u say but i respect u. i hope u dont hafta go in and good luck. i never wanted to do any of that anyway, and for ur info, i do tell people that say we should bomb afganistan to shut the fuck up. even though are reasons for not wanting to send people in may be different, the fact is we both dont want people/u goin in. so, much respect, and if u do hafta go in, good luck.

i guess thats all for now, i dont really think i got a lot more to say unless someone says sumthin that gets me fired up to respond (not necessarily fired up in an angry way, just fired up and feel i should give input).

<B><COLOR=limegreen>so until then, peace everyone and God Bless!</limegreen><B>

<COLOR=deeppink>tattooedmind</COLOR>

<COLOR=crimson>Liberty is the one thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. -William Allen White</COLOR>

[tw]

Originally posted by tattooedmind
tw-im not an extremist, im an anarchist, yes i curse a lot, so wut, and yes i completely understand wut vsp was saying and i wasnt trying to comment so much on wut he said as much as post my own feelings, and happen to see his and agree w/ it and felt that it was a good spot to post mine.

There are a few events in American history where anyone can tell you where he was when he heard. Peral Harbor. Kennedy Assasination. Challenger explosion. WTC destruction. Many events occur in history including the oh so necessary removal of a corrupt Nixon, the assasination of ML King, or even the invasion of Kuwait. These are major events but will not be remembered as the above top 4. The WTC destruction including the murder of 5,000 International citizens is one event that everyone will remember 30 years from now. Even the simultaneous Pentagon attack will not have the same long lasting effect.

Having cited a difference between anarchist and extemist, I did not appreciate the difference. IOW there was a strong dislike of everything - this time without the implied hate - but I did not see how an anarchist's attitude differs from an extemist attitude.

Some of concepts that your fellow anarchists dislike (assuming they and you are in agreement) were listed. But what is it that anarchists want? What is the long term desire or objective? I don't even understand why things would be better - why no bombing and terrorism - if there were anarchy?

[jaguar]

*sighs*
tattooed mind i spent a quarter of an hour trying to decipher what you said into something that resembeled the english language in legible form. Then another quarter of an hour trying to make sense of it.

I don't remember, and i read over my post, not to do anything at all. Do us a favour - define the term anarchist a little more throughly, waht do you stnad for, etcetc. Anarchy in its traditional definanition is the lack of anyone have any form of power over anyone else, that is /pure/ anarchy, which of course impossible along with pure free speach and pure freedom of action. My own politics are a mix of libertarian and socialist (yes left and right -wierd eh but i can explain it) so....
damn - gotta go ill finish this when i get home.
\

[elSicomoro]

Originally posted by tattooedmind
sycamore-u say sumthin that i hear from a lot of people wen they find out i beleive in anarchy. the fact that it is much worse in other countries. and im gonna say the same thing i tell them. yes i know it is. it is bad here, not quite as bad as other places, but i dont live in other places. i live here. i dont like it here. and i probably wouldnt like it anywhere. i am against all governments everywhere. not just the US.

These are the definitions of anarchy (from Merriam-Webster online):

<i>1 a : absence of government
b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority
c : a utopian society of individuals who enjoy complete freedom without government

2 a : absence or denial of any authority or established order
b : absence of order</i>

So I guess my question is: What do YOU consider anarchy? Anarchy is up there in the annuls with socialism and communism, although anarchy does not conjure up the positivity that the former two tend to bring. (Granted, communism doesn't sound so great now, but the idea itself is noble.) Furthermore, idiots in Seattle and Genoa have tarnished any positive thoughts of anarchy.

Anarchy would work well if you were in a roving nomad tribe or a village of 50. It is highly unlikely that any large country could practice anarchy, socialism, or pure communism. (France probably comes closest, along with the Scandanavian countries.) Hell, for that matter, our own country is not a democracy.

You probably have a long life ahead of you tattooed mind, so rather than dismiss the system so quickly, I would recommend finding a way to best live within the system. Certainly you have a right to feel the way you do, and you may wish to (peacefully) fight the system. It's important to stand up for your beliefs, and I encourage it. So long as you realize that your fight could be in vain. Government as a whole works, and it actually works fairly well.

Not to slag on the younger generation here, but I remember how quickly my world changed when I was out on my own and had bills to pay and had to start working full-time for a living. I still have my fighting spirit (hence why I've been out of work a total of 10 weeks in the past year), but my perspective has definitely changed.

[jaguar]

syc I swear we are on the same wavelength on allot of stuff - what I want to know is exactly what he'd prefer to the 'establishment' that I hear such people talk about.

Sure, the system is fucked, there are allot of very, very fucked up things. Read a book called Stark by Ben Elton, very, very funny but highlights allot of these things in a very sobering way. At the same time what are the alternatives. I posted on another thread in currant affairs recently my little summing up of the left and the right. I doubt you want Plato's or Asimov’s dictatorship, so what do you want? I mean its all good to bitch and moan and point out how fucking awful is but if the best solution you can offer is that by somehow ripping everything apart its all going to be fine you have some serious rethinking to do.

You sound rather.....unenlightened about the majority of political theory for the last few hundred years, you seem to see the US of A as the nadir of exploitative capitalism. Which is correct. Which is why I’m moving to Europe. I advise you read some of Marx, in fact I advise you read allot of Marx. Might clear allot of stuff up for you. No I’m not a Marxist his view of history is far to simplistic but there is allot in it.

And yea, syc - u have a point. I’ve come very close to moving out but it’s just impossible to finance properly and stuff at my age...which is a pity coz I’d love my own pad, and so would my girlfriend who I’m very close to. So it’d work well. . I'm waiting for a friend to finish uni early next year at which point there'll be a space in the place he's renting with friends that I might be able to take cheap which would rock.

[Griff]

I've had the same question since the Battle for Seattle so maybe tatoo can shed some light on where these kids are coming from. I've read up on anarchism a bit and there seems to be two major threads with many sub-threads. The native American types are/were mostly individualistic and mutualistic (utopian communal) both tending towards pascifism, some being very religion oriented and others opposing organized religion. Ben Tucker, Lysander Spooner, Josiah Warren, Ezra Heywood JK Ingalls among many others. European (Russian/German) or left anarchy seems to have been closely aligned with Communism and seems much more violent, although there are questions the Haymarket Bombing seems to have been pinned on them. I believe William McKinleys assassin claimed to be an anarchist. Thats where your Boris and Natasha stereotype fromm bullwinkle comes into play. When the Europeans came to the states they were initially embraced but the philosophical differences between the groups made any long term relationships impossible. oops goota run g