Government Shut Down

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Adak

If and ONLY if they first are given everything they want:

*full funding for Obamacare/ACA

*a debt ceiling high enough to last for the next several months.

That's not negotiating. You don't get everything you want, before you agree to negotiate.

Those aren't even demands, let alone "everything they want". Those are the status quo.

The Democrats haven't attached anything, let alone everything they want, to either bill.

In a theoretical "negotiation", what are the Republicans offering to give, in a give and take? All I'm seeing is take or take slightly less. Republicans are acting as if a functional government or paying our debts is a concession to Democrats.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by DanaC

Being a mom or dad, nephew or niece and wanting the country to flourish does not mean someone isn't an extremist

So having attempted to humanise the tea party you're now trying to dehumanise Occupy.

A little balance to reality is always a good thing. Several reporters have interviewed the Occupiers, and they admitted they were paid anywhere from $15 to $40 per day, to be there and demonstrate with them.

Are they not also moms, dads, nephews or nieces? Just because you disagree with their views doesn't mean they don't want America to flourish. They just want it to flourish according to their definition, not yours.

They also don't currently have a stranglehold on American politics despite their minority status, along with the power, seemingly, to wreck constitutionally arrived at decisions because they lost the vote and don't feel like they are represented.

I quite agree with Occupy, on some points. For instance, clearly Wall St. was coddled in the recession, despite the fact that they magnified the intensity of it, considerably.

But look at an Occupy demonstration after they're done, and it's utterly trashed, to say nothing of laws being broken, riot police being needed, and property being damaged.

Contrast that with the Tea Party demonstration. It's left clean, property rights are respected, and no laws are broken. There's no riot police needed, no tear gas, no molotov cocktails thrown - none of that. (and no rapes!)

I'll reluctantly admit that Anarchists are people, but since I have NO desire to live as the Cavemen did, I just can't follow their beliefs very far.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Those aren't even demands, let alone "everything they want". Those are the status quo.

The Democrats haven't attached anything, let alone everything they want, to either bill.

In a theoretical "negotiation", what are the Republicans offering to give, in a give and take? All I'm seeing is take or take slightly less. Republicans are acting as if a functional government or paying our debts is a concession to Democrats.

If that is "the status quo", then why is the gov't shut down? Why is the shutdown being blamed on the Republicans?

Ah!

Because the gov't has branches, and the branch of gov't that controls the purse strings for ALL gov't spending (as a whole), is the House - not the President, and not the Senate.

So in your status quo, the President and Senate can spend only as much as has been agreed upon BY THE HOUSE.

And that's the problem with Obama and the Democrats. They have not been listening to what the House majority party has been saying.

Obama and the Democrats have gotten a LOT of bills passed and made into law, that they wanted. Now the Republicans want to get some things done from their own bucket list.

If Obama doesn't want to negotiate, then Obama better be ready to run the gov't with the debt ceiling of the status quo. Of course, Obama can't do that, because his budgets have been a dismal failure. Time to start listening perhaps.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

Your words, not theirs...

The GOP House of Representatives voted to pass the funding Bill for Obamacare.
The GOP House of Representatives voted to pass the funding Bills for all of the budget in the Debt Ceiling
The Senate passed and the President signed those Bills
The total of all these Bills passed by the GOP House exceeds the current debt ceiling.

Now the GOP House is attempting to renege on it's agreements.
Reid is opposed to rewarding their recurring bad behavior.

That's the problem with passing bills into law, when they haven't been studied, FIRST.

Now that Obamacare has started to roll out further, and a lot of exemptions have been made, and a lot of our biggest health care insurers have backed out of Obamacare, the people are not so happy with it. And that is what the House Republicans are reacting to. Remember, they had to vote on ACA before it's contents were even fully written up - "We'll vote on it first, and find out what's in it later", they were told.
So they did just that. And now the people they represent are not happy with what's in it.

House members, unlike the Senate, MUST respond quicker to the feedback they're getting from their district. They are up for election every 2 years, and it's coming up FAST. They have to respond, or they're out, as early as next year.

[Adak]

Don't you just love the way politicians talk out of both sides of their mouth, at the same time?

Latest example is Obama: "raising the debt ceiling does not increase the amount we owe".

That's a glorious double talk beauty! It's true, yet we all know that raising the debt ceiling is made necessary BECAUSE WE'RE SPENDING MORE MONEY THAN WE TAKE IN!

That doesn't top Clinton's prize winner however:
"It depends what you definition of "is" is."

THAT is a double talk masterpiece, right there!

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Adak

If that is "the status quo", then why is the gov't shut down? Why is the shutdown being blamed on the Republicans?

Because they are the ones who are making demands.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Adak

That's a glorious double talk beauty! It's true, yet we all know that raising the debt ceiling is made necessary BECAUSE WE'RE SPENDING MORE MONEY THAN WE TAKE IN!

A problem that was solved. And then extremist Republicans did what they love to do - spend money we do not have on wars without purpose. And did so while joyfully massacring 5000 American servicemen. So now we have maybe $2 or $3trillion dollars of debt that was financed by the Chinese - because some wacko president was so dumb - another word for extremist.

Those debts remain with or without the debt ceiling lifted. However if the debt ceiling is not lifted, then wacko Republicans get what they love. Those outstanding debts increase even more.

Bills created in early 2000s created these debts. Debts that now require the ceiling be lifted. If not paid, then all outstanding debts increase. You should have thought about those debts when wackos were using lies to created them back in 2003. I did - vigorously. Where were you when it was time to avert those debts? Too late now.

So you want to increase those debts by not raising a debt ceiling. Apparently wacko extremist rhetoric forgets to mention that part - to increase debts to make America fail.

[Undertoad]

The deficit is falling rapidly these days

[Lamplighter]

If that is "the status quo", then why is the gov't shut down?
Why is the shutdown being blamed on the Republicans?

The GOP has tried several faux drama issues to avoid responsibility for the government shutdown,
such as "just one child", "WWII vets barricaded from memorial", "1-yr ACA business deferral unfair", etc.

Now that the "debt ceiling" is another imminent issue,
Ron Paul Cantor and Eric Cantor are looking for a "grand strategy".
But Ted Cruz and the GOP are rebelling, saying "wait a minute, where is the "Repeal Obamacare" ?

Today, a former head of the Republican National Committee conceded...
The House GOP is "Leader-less, Rudder-less, and Clue-less"

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

The GOP has tried several faux drama issues to avoid responsibility for the government shutdown,
such as "just one child", "WWII vets barricaded from memorial", "1-yr ACA business deferral unfair", etc.

Now that the "debt ceiling" is another imminent issue,
Ron Paul Cantor and Eric Cantor are looking for a "grand strategy".
But Ted Cruz and the GOP are rebelling, saying "wait a minute, where is the "Repeal Obamacare" ?

Today, a former head of the Republican National Committee conceded...
The House GOP is "Leader-less, Rudder-less, and Clue-less"

Oh, there are a LOT of Republican RINO's who think the whole Conservative branch of the Republican party, should take a long walk, off a short pier! The Bush family (both) were not conservatives. All the RINO's tried their best to block Reagan when he was trying to win the nomination of the Party. They just KNEW he couldn't win, and didn't see the need for his policies!

You can hear the RINO's on the news shows every weekend, it seems. They're like a doughnut that looks good, but when you get to the inside of it, instead of a jelly filling, it's a load of horseshit.

Obamacare won't be repealed - nobody expected that. My guess is there will be some ACTUAL < SHOCKING! I know >, negotiating as we get near the debt ceiling limit. Obamacare itself will NOT be on the table, even. Probably the exemptions - stuff like that.

The good news today is that both the Treasury and Moody's have stated that the US will be be able to fully pay for it's debt, even if the debt ceiling is not raised.

THAT is very good news!

Programs may be curtailed, of course, as they run outside of their current budget amounts that are within the debt ceiling, but there will be no default on our obligations, to anyone.

Whew!

More to Obama's shame, the open air war memorials are closed again. What a commander in chief! Hard to really stomach a man who would deny us the right to honor our war dead.

I'm surprised that the media hasn't roasted Obama to the bone, over this - but he's their guy. If he were pictured bashing in the heads of baby seals with an axe, I'm sure the media would say he was a hero, saving the entire seal species, from over population.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The deficit is falling rapidly these days

The deficit can fall quite rapidly. That's not the same as the federal debt, of course, which is far larger, and harder to rein in.

As we get out of Afghanistan, and get more gas and oil developed (quite against Obama's wishes, but he takes credit for it anyway), the deficit will fall very rapidly.

The federal debt? No. That's like trying to herd cats.

[glatt]

The debt? Has the federal debt ever gone down (in modern times?)

[Happy Monkey]

The debt only goes down if there's a surplus. So, by one measure, it happened under Clinton. But, apparently, by another measure, it didn't. And if it didn't happen under Clinton, then it probably hasn't.

[Lamplighter]

The good news today is that both the Treasury and Moody's
have stated that the US will be be able to fully pay for it's debt, even if the debt ceiling is not raised.

THAT is very good news!

Hooray Adak.
But someone forgot to tell the WSJ and the Treasury Dept yesterday
that the debt ceiling hasn't even been voted on yet, and the US has
not yet defaulted on anything. It's still "Full Faith and Credit of the USA"

Wall Street Journal
10/8/13
Default Worry Hammers Short-Term U.S. Debt
...T-bill Yields Climb to Highest Since October 2008

Short-term U.S. debt prices tumbled again Tuesday amid rising investor concern
about the prospect of a government-debt default, sending the yield
on one-month U.S. Treasury bills to its highest level since the financial crisis.

With little sign that Republicans and Democrats will hammer out
a compromise on the partial government shutdown, many in the
financial markets are starting to worry about the prospect of a default.

Treasury bills maturing on Oct. 31
—a date many market participants predict for the Treasury to run out of cash to pay its bills—
sold off sharply Tuesday, driving their yields up to 0.35%, the highest level since October 2008.

One-Month Treasury Bill Yield



Concern about the stalemate in Washington was also evident in Tuesday's auction of new bills.
The Treasury Department sold $30 billion worth of four-week bills maturing on Nov. 7
at a rate of 0.350%, the highest rate the government paid on such short-dated debt in five years.

Money-market funds and banks are typically the biggest buyers of Treasury bills,
where they park their idle cash for a short time. But they shied away from the auction Tuesday.
The bid-to-cover ratio, a gauge of investor demand, was 2.76,
the lowest since July 2009 for four-week bills, according to Nomura Securities.

That's very GOOD news for investors ... Right, Adak ?
Of course, if you have a loan pegged to the T-Bill rate, not so much.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

But someone forgot to tell the WSJ and the Treasury Dept yesterday that the debt ceiling hasn't even been voted on yet, and the US has not yet defaulted on anything.

Government is down to its last $30billion. Once that goes, then government must decide which creditors to not pay. Once payments are not made, then a vicious circle of liquidity freezing takes hold. Similar to what happened in 2007 and in 1998. In those previous events, Fed funds averted a crisis. No such solution exists if extremists get a "We want American to fail" that they want.

They want to increase current debts by quashing the debt ceiling. That will only make existing debts increase for various reasons including those cited by Lamplighter.