"Mind over Matter" proven at Princeton - Page 2

H Caulfield · 10-31-2003, 02:25 AM

Hermex-
Interesting: I happened upon that very book today in the library, and chanced to pick it up, but not to read through it, most likely through the work of some god or star-crossing

. I've heard of many books about consciousness, but haven't really read any full books on the subject, only those sort of relating to the field. What do you think so far?

..."consciousness explained"...wow, that's a most impressive feat, if that's what Daniel means by the book's title. In my discussions and related readings, and those of others who have spent a great deal of time on the matter, consciousness is a damn elusive thing. So I'm interested to see what he's come up with.

greenian · 11-01-2003, 01:03 AM

anyone who read the 'souls' poll knows my thoughts on the nature of the mind/brain relationship. Two different things, interconnected in a particular locality, the mind influencing the brain through dipole oscillations of electrons. The yes/no position of a dipole is then relayed through a series of slight shifts in all the forces acting on it. That shift tells something to every other dipole, not just in our minds, but throughout humanity en masse. This is evidenced by many different aspects of Jungs "collective unconscience" ideas. Theoretically, just because some smarter humans figured out how to make tungsten heat up to give off light doesn't mean the rest of us should understand. But even before communication became as omnipresent a force as it is today, ideas still had a way of popping up in many different places at once. Look at the convergent nature of many social trends. Europe and Japan. They had little to no communication, yet they concurrently developed a warrior class with a higher moral standard than many were held to. And in a few concurrent cases some of these knight/samurai added religious zealotry into the mix. Our souls, their souls. It makes little difference interconnectedness comes into play.

No I can't prove any of this, I can only cite some precedent, and it leads me to draw these conclusions. Make of all that what you will.

lumberjim · 11-04-2003, 07:37 PM

JESUS CHRIST

where are the posts for the short attention span participants? It's like trying to follow Steven Friggin Hawking or Carl Goddamn Sagan with these posts. My brain hurts! Please! Someone pull my finger!!!

Torrere · 11-04-2003, 08:28 PM

Astrology hasn't made sense (imho) since the heliocentric model replaced the geocentric model of the Universe.

My first reaction, and remaining reaction to the PEAR experiments is: I don't believe it.

greenian: that idea is "morphic resonance". I think that independent development is much more believable, because I feel that people in similar situations will do similar things. When the basis of knowledge is at a certain point, someone or more than one person will follow through to the next idea.

I believe that common scenarios, like the knights in Japan and Europe which you mentioned, tell us more about human behavior than provide evidence for morphic resonance. Division between 'vulgar morality' and 'noble morality' is one of those basic things that keeps on happening (Nietzsche: Genealogy of Morals). Different social groups form different definitions of morality. That the morality of the common people is considered lesser than the moral standards of the ruling class shows the bias that we've received from history.

greenian · 11-05-2003, 12:32 AM

independent developement IS a more plausible idea, but it doesn't explain some of the convergence in culture that we see occur. Ideas proliferate, I once read that four other men in four other countries were doing Ben Franklins kite experiment about the same time he was. Morphic resonance, holographic thought modelling, it doesn't matter what you want to call it. It's just interconnection. Everything does affect everything else. And when something new comes on the scene anywhere its presence is felt everywhere.

I don't undertstand when morality came into it, I think you were making a point about similar ideas recurring throughout history. And yes, in the "morphic resonance" model, that shouldn't happen. But morphic resonance implies a groove, worn through our minds, establishing tracks simply through usefulness and repitition. It's a general statement, and doesn't apply to all people. But look way back at history. First civilization, Sumeria. but not for long. they were established as a collection of city-states, then suddenly there's Akkadia to the north, Egypt to the west, Babylonia farther north. They didn't have time for independent minds spread over that area to just up and decide to start an agricultural lifetsyle. It just happened that way. A new process came into the collective unconscience and it began manifesting itself in other places almost immediately.

11-01-2003, 01:03 AM	#17
greenian Simulated Simulacrum Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 39	mind vs. brain anyone who read the 'souls' poll knows my thoughts on the nature of the mind/brain relationship. Two different things, interconnected in a particular locality, the mind influencing the brain through dipole oscillations of electrons. The yes/no position of a dipole is then relayed through a series of slight shifts in all the forces acting on it. That shift tells something to every other dipole, not just in our minds, but throughout humanity en masse. This is evidenced by many different aspects of Jungs "collective unconscience" ideas. Theoretically, just because some smarter humans figured out how to make tungsten heat up to give off light doesn't mean the rest of us should understand. But even before communication became as omnipresent a force as it is today, ideas still had a way of popping up in many different places at once. Look at the convergent nature of many social trends. Europe and Japan. They had little to no communication, yet they concurrently developed a warrior class with a higher moral standard than many were held to. And in a few concurrent cases some of these knight/samurai added religious zealotry into the mix. Our souls, their souls. It makes little difference interconnectedness comes into play. No I can't prove any of this, I can only cite some precedent, and it leads me to draw these conclusions. Make of all that what you will.

11-04-2003, 07:37 PM	#18
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	JESUS CHRIST where are the posts for the short attention span participants? It's like trying to follow Steven Friggin Hawking or Carl Goddamn Sagan with these posts. My brain hurts! Please! Someone pull my finger!!! __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

10-31-2003, 02:25 AM	#16
H Caulfield Non-Newbie Sort Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Grand Junction, CO, USA Posts: 6	Hermex- Interesting: I happened upon that very book today in the library, and chanced to pick it up, but not to read through it, most likely through the work of some god or star-crossing . I've heard of many books about consciousness, but haven't really read any full books on the subject, only those sort of relating to the field. What do you think so far? ..."consciousness explained"...wow, that's a most impressive feat, if that's what Daniel means by the book's title. In my discussions and related readings, and those of others who have spent a great deal of time on the matter, consciousness is a damn elusive thing. So I'm interested to see what he's come up with.

11-04-2003, 08:28 PM	#19
Torrere a real smartass Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Kirkland, WA Posts: 1,121	Astrology hasn't made sense (imho) since the heliocentric model replaced the geocentric model of the Universe. My first reaction, and remaining reaction to the PEAR experiments is: I don't believe it. greenian: that idea is "morphic resonance". I think that independent development is much more believable, because I feel that people in similar situations will do similar things. When the basis of knowledge is at a certain point, someone or more than one person will follow through to the next idea. I believe that common scenarios, like the knights in Japan and Europe which you mentioned, tell us more about human behavior than provide evidence for morphic resonance. Division between 'vulgar morality' and 'noble morality' is one of those basic things that keeps on happening (Nietzsche: Genealogy of Morals). Different social groups form different definitions of morality. That the morality of the common people is considered lesser than the moral standards of the ruling class shows the bias that we've received from history.

11-05-2003, 12:32 AM	#20
greenian Simulated Simulacrum Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 39	independent developement IS a more plausible idea, but it doesn't explain some of the convergence in culture that we see occur. Ideas proliferate, I once read that four other men in four other countries were doing Ben Franklins kite experiment about the same time he was. Morphic resonance, holographic thought modelling, it doesn't matter what you want to call it. It's just interconnection. Everything does affect everything else. And when something new comes on the scene anywhere its presence is felt everywhere. I don't undertstand when morality came into it, I think you were making a point about similar ideas recurring throughout history. And yes, in the "morphic resonance" model, that shouldn't happen. But morphic resonance implies a groove, worn through our minds, establishing tracks simply through usefulness and repitition. It's a general statement, and doesn't apply to all people. But look way back at history. First civilization, Sumeria. but not for long. they were established as a collection of city-states, then suddenly there's Akkadia to the north, Egypt to the west, Babylonia farther north. They didn't have time for independent minds spread over that area to just up and decide to start an agricultural lifetsyle. It just happened that way. A new process came into the collective unconscience and it began manifesting itself in other places almost immediately.

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