Saudi: Why we punished rape victim

[Cloud]

of course there's more improvement needed here. But as a woman who has lived almost all her life in this country, I'm soooo grateful I was born here, where I'm not in danger of being stoned to death by my neighbors, or drowned by my father if I wanted to get in a car and drive to the store.

I agree there is a difference in degrees... however being tried overtly and being defacto tried for rape, the topic of this discussion, is the same to me.

[Cloud]

. . .

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by classicman

My gosh, Ali. Thats terrible. You have a great attitude for one who has gone thru something like that.

Well, we all have choices. I still have my moments. I can't stand rape jokes or people who make light of it. I've had some issues even on this board about it, but I've tried to find a way of leaving it all in the past as much as I could. Yes it still affects the way I react sometimes, but so do all the other events in my past.

Everyone has a story but mostly we never get to know. Maybe if more people were willing to share, there'd be better understanding.

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

SO pissed off... wrong a long reply and-power-surge.
I completely disagree with you Ali, sorry to, but I do.
When I was dating I was having consensual sex with a girl, who had issues I later found out, and she said stop... so I stopped.
Had I continued it would have been rape, just rape and only rape; my fault, just my fault and ONLY my fault.
Nothing she can do, say, "imply" etc, matters after "NO", anything after that is HIS DECISION ALONE and RAPE.
No is ALWAYS NO.

Well, in an ideal world that would always be the case. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world, and we never will. Quite frankly, I wouldn't want to. Imagine how dull life would be if we all behaved exactly as people expected us to.

With that in mind, no one expects to be raped, but it does happen. It's always happened, and it always will happen. I don't know what the solution is, but it's never black and white in any of these situations. It's just a shame that the law forces us to make it that way. That's my opinion.

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by queequeger

Not to mention that saying it was even partially a victim's fault because of their actions implies that men are animals and can't control ourselves.

I don't believe most men are like that. I don't even believe some men are like that. There are a small percentage who are though. I wish I'd known what I was getting myself into. If I had, I would have made different choices. That's all I meant.

[piercehawkeye45]

There is no comparison between females rights in the United States and in Saudi Arabia. Even though I have heard major progress with gay and woman rights in Saudi Arabia, mostly just "law breakers" are ignored, I wouldn't say the flaws in the United States are even close to these countries.

I would like to see protests in the United States against the support of Saudi Arabia because without it, there could very well be a change with these types of issues. I am not certain about this and don't have any proof, but I believe I heard that this brutal regime is unpopular and if it was taken over, there would be more woman and gay rights but unfortunately the United States is keeping them in power in fear of losing influence in this oil-rich country.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

I see your point, but innocent until proven guilty has nothing to do with her character any more than her character has anything to do with whether she was raped or not, ever, no matter what her character was.

But what if her character clearly proved her to be a habitual liar? Other character flaws are obviously different, but surely one's historical honesty (both the man's and the woman's) has relevance if there is no evidence other than he-said/she-said? It's not a guarantee, of course--a pathological liar could still be a legitimate rape victim--but sometimes it's all the courts have to go on.

[Cloud]

For information, Amnesty International's pages on Saudi Arabia, including one on women: http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/saudi/report.html

Secrecy and fear permeate every aspect of the state structure in Saudi Arabia. There are no political parties, no elections, no independent legislature, no trades unions, no Bar Association, no independent judiciary, no independent human rights organizations. The government allows no international human rights organizations to carry out research in the country and it ignores requests by such organizations for information. It has effective control over all kinds of information: there is strict censorship of media within the country and strict control of access to the Internet, satellite television and other forms of communication with the outside world. Anyone living in Saudi Arabia who criticizes this system is harshly punished. After arrest, political and religious opponents of the government are detained indefinitely without trial or are imprisoned after grossly unfair trials. Torture is endemic. Executions, flogging and amputations are imposed and carried out with disregard for the most basic international fair trial standards.

Strict segregation of the sexes, an integral part of Saudi Arabian society, has adverse and unequal effects on women, who are denied equal educational opportunities and may work only in certain vocations. Women's freedom of movement is severely restricted. They may not travel abroad unless they have the written authorization of a male relative, usually their father or husband, and may have to be accompanied. Inside Saudi Arabia, they are forbidden to drive

[xoxoxoBruce]

It's good to be the king.

[Cloud]

yeah. Notice he's not blowing himself up to get access to 40 heavenly virgins.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Cloud

yeah. Notice he's not blowing himself up to get access to 40 heavenly virgins.

Well, he would actually favor US Imperialism because it keeps him in power.

[free ranger]

Interesting discussion - thanks.

Here is an article, from the victim's point of view:

Exclusive: Saudi Rape Victim Tells Her Story

Victim to Receive Whipping and Jail for Being in Nonrelative's Car When Attacked
By LARA SETRAKIAN
Nov. 21, 2007 —


Saudi Arabia's Ministry of Justice is defending a sentence of 200 lashes for the victim of a gang rape, punished because she was in the car of a male who wasn't a relative when the two were attacked.

In exclusive testimony obtained by ABC News, the young woman told her story of what happened and how she was treated in the months that followed.

"Everyone looks at me as if I'm wrong. I couldn't even continue my studies. I wanted to die. I tried to commit suicide twice," she said of her experience just after the attack.

The woman, known anonymously in the Saudi press as "Qatif Girl" for the eastern province town where the crime took place, was originally sentenced to 90 lashes for being in a state of "khalwa" -- retreat with a male who's not a relative.

But the General Court of Qatif increased the punishment to 200 lashes and six months in jail after she took her case to the press. Authorities deemed it an "attempt to aggravate and influence the judiciary through the media," according to Saudi Arabia's English-language newspaper Arab News.

The seven attackers were convicted of rape with sentences that ranged from two to nine years in prison, according to Arab News.

In a December 2006 interview in Khobar, Saudi Arabia the woman gave a full account of her testimony to Human Rights Watch, describing the incident as she did before the court. She was meeting a male acquaintance, a former boyfriend, when the attack took place.


Ordeal Began With a Photo
"I [was] 19 years old. I had a relationship with someone on the phone. We were both 16. I had never seen him before. I just knew his voice. He started to threaten me, and I got afraid. He threatened to tell my family about the relationship. Because of the threats and fear, I agreed to give him a photo of myself," she recounted.

"A few months [later], I asked him for the photo back but he refused. I had gotten married to another man. He said, 'I'll give you the photo on the condition that you come out with me in my car.' I told him we could meet at a souk [market[ near my neighborhood city plaza in Qatif.

"He started to drive me home. &We were 15 minutes from my house. I told him that I was afraid and that he should speed up. We were about to turn the corner to my house when they [another car] stopped right in front of our car. Two people got out of their car and stood on either side of our car. They man on my side had a knife. They tried to open our door. I told the individual with me not to open the door, but he did. He let them come in. I screamed.

"One of the men brought a knife to my throat. They told me not to speak. They pushed us to the back of the car and started driving. We drove a lot, but I didn't see anything since my head was forced down."

"They took us to an area & with lots of palm trees. No one was there. If you kill someone there, no one would know about it. They took out the man with me, and I stayed in the car. I was so afraid. They forced me out of the car. They pushed me really hard ... took me to a dark place. Then two men came in. They said, 'What are you going to do? Take off your abaya.' They forced my clothes off. The first man with the knife raped me. I was destroyed. If I tried to escape, I don't even know where I would go. I tried to force them off but I couldn't. [Another] man & came in and did the same thing to me. I didn't even feel anything after that.

"I spent two hours begging them to take me home. I told them that it was late and that my family would be asking about me. Then I saw a third man come into the room. There was a lot of violence. After the third man came in, a fourth came. He slapped me and tried to choke me.

"The fifth and sixth ones were the most abusive. After the seventh one, I couldn't feel my body anymore. I didn't know what to do. Then a very fat man came on top of me and I could no longer breathe.

"Then all seven came back and raped me again. Then they took me home. & When I got out of the car, I couldn't even walk. I rang the doorbell and my mother opened the door. She said you look tired.' I didn't eat for one week after that, just water. I didn't tell anyone. I went to the hospital the next day.

"The criminals started talking about it [the rape] in my neighborhood. They thought my husband would divorce me. They wanted to ruin my reputation. Slowly my husband started to know what had happened. Four months later, we started a case. My family heard about the case. My brother hit me and tried to kill me."


Lawyer Punished Too
Along with the young woman's sentence, the General Court of Qatif confiscated the license of her attorney, Abdul Rahman Al-Lahem, a lawyer known for taking on controversial cases that push back against Saudi Arabia's strictly interpreted system of sharia, or Islamic law.

"Asking me to appear in front of a disciplinary committee at the Ministry of Justice & is a punishment for taking human rights cases against some institutions," Al-Lahem told Arab News.

Saudi Arabia's Ministry of Justice said in this week's statement that Al-Lahem's "faulty behaviors & contradict the ethics of his profession and violate the provisions of practicing law and its executive code."

New York-based Human Rights Watch researcher Christoph Wilcke, who studies the Saudi legal system, said the woman would need a pardon from King Abdullah himself or from the provincial governor to be spared the lashings and jail time. The punishment will also be reviewed by the Supreme Judiciary Council, which will scrutinize the ruling, according to the Ministry of Justice.



http://abcnews.go.com/International/...3899920&page=1