American Protestor killed in Gaza

[wolf]

Welcome, Kev!

I have the current good fortune to live and work in the suburbs, and for the most part not to be troubled by protests, actions, or even moderately sized groups of people milling around for any reason (although I have, on occasion, driven past the abortion clinic on protest days, but the police appear to have made it very clear that the protest is not allowed to spill out onto the roadway and bother anyone else, except for the predictable gaper-block, which is usually less messy than the regular evening traffic pattern).

I'm not really big on protesting in general. Doesn't seem to accomplish much. Last one I was actually present for was in college (entirely too long ago) and that was a "food fight to protest how bad the cafeteria food was". I only went to watch. The caf was packed, and to this day I wish I had a picture of the campus police who were in full riot gear ... one had creamed corn running down his face shield. Priceless. The food, however, continued to suck for my remaining four years.

[katfiche]

http://free.freespeech.org/americans...helCorrie.html

Amazing the tendency to blame the victim. I seriously doubt this young girl was suicidal for her cause. Bursting with righteous indignation stemming from youthful idealism, yes.

As with all contemporary thought, Isreali/American/British relations are worth questioning. Anti-Zionist is not equivelant to anti-Jew, although the ADL would certainly disagree and does so quite frequently. As for why we are so deeply involved with the Zionist's, I'll leave that up to inquiring minds to draw their own conclusions.

[Undertoad]

I certainly do blame the victim in this case. She made a number of choices that I know, if I were to make them, I would be placing my life in danger.

I'm very safe, sitting here in my comfy home. What choices do I make?

If I were to travel to the middle east, I would assume that I was increasing my chance of death by about double. Still a pretty low rate.

If I were to engage in Palestinian street protests, knowing that the non-government of the area summarily executes people without any trial for being suspected of helping the enemy, I would assume that I was increasing my chance of death by about 100 times.

If I were to become part of an organization that celebrates thuggery by helping to hide the thugs: another 100 times.

If I were to walk around a construction site in the US: around 50 times.

If I were to walk around a construction site I was unfamiliar with in another country: about 100 times.

Tw posted a story about a year ago, about a friend of his who was killed accidentally at a construction site. THAT is a tragedy. I was terribly saddened by it, because although the gentleman in question had chosen to work in construction, he had made many choices to increase his safety and nevertheless died in a freak accident.

This broad made her own choices. I find them to be ridiculously stupid and dangerous. I'm not surprised she's gone. My biggest outrage is how people like yourself try to spin this nine different ways. You're so certain of the facts that you *know* she was *murdered*.

What do you really know? Here's a hint. Look at the shots on your page sold to us as the "before" and "after":

BEFORE

AFTER


Look at the lights on top of the dozer. Look at the blade. These are two different bulldozers.

So what happened? You don't know, yet you're so convinced that you know the truth that you're crying at the top of your voice.

[katfiche]

Did you actually bother to read the eyewitness accounts or were you simply all too eager to share your theory? I'm not disputing your observation regarding the bulldozer but your logic that this discredits the story is flawed and a straw man argument. The story never claims these are sequential images but rather points out that she was visible to the drivers of the bulldozer being that she was wearing a bright orange safety jacket and carrying a bullhorn.

I never said I agreed with her actions but I definately admire her determination and will. I never criticized your post, why do you attack mine when all I did was provide information for people to determine the facts for themselves? I thought it a pity that people might form a decision based on this scant thread.

The fact is, the girl was young with a life ahead of her. Someone in a bulldozer had enough hate within them to destroy her life. That kind of hatred is foreign to me. Before you call it an accident you should read the account.

I also fail to understand your hostility towards me or this dead girl. Perhaps it is the very fact that you are "sitting comfy in your safe home" in inaction that you attempt to justify her murder. You say that I am so sure of the facts in the case but my understanding of the facts comes from reading depositions taken from eyewitnesses which I was attempting to share here. Your view is based on flawed logic and an apparent disdain of idealists.

Even if I were wrong and it was an accident, is it still not a tragedy? Does she not deserve some respect?

As for my "crying at the top of your voice", that hardly is a fair characterization of my post. I feel for the loss of life and potential. I think it a pity she died acting against futility but I also think its a crime she was killed out of hatred and with impunity.

-Cf

[wolf]

The fact is, the girl was young with a life ahead of her.

And perhaps she felt that she was not wasting it ...

I think she was a fool, but, that's my opinion. It's also my opinion that folks who do that kind of thing should check their American Citizenship at the door. Yah, it's not quite like she formally signed up to fight under a foreign flag, but it's close enough, IMHO. You don't like America or what America's doing? You are welcome to leave. Good luck finding any other nation willing to take you, however.

[Elspode]

I acknowledge this incident as a tragedy in every way, but there is no reasonable way that this woman could have been run over if she'd been trying to get out of the way. If she stood her ground, it was an intentional self-sacrifice. If she stumbled and fell and was run over, it was a horrible accident based on the fact that she was in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was still her choice to be there.

Now, if the guy in the bulldozer drove insanely after her and ran her down despite her best efforts to escape, it is murder. However, it would have to have been the most high-performance bulldozer in the world to accomplish this, perhaps one of those special drag-racing bulldozers I've heard so much about.

I reiterate my original statement about this...don't fuck with the Israelis, they'll take you out and not look back. They feel it is a means to their own survival. Ask the Palestinians who blow themselves up every other day to kill Israelis...betcha they feel the same way.

It all sucks, and either the girl willingly sacrificed herself or was just plain stupid or unlucky. Murder on the part of the bulldozer driver is simply not a reasonable conclusion.

[Undertoad]

Perhaps it is the very fact that you are "sitting comfy in your safe home" in inaction that you attempt to justify her murder.

Perhaps, but I find it hard to make that connection. Could you expand? Tks.

[Elspode]

I'd like to hear that explained, too...are we to assume that if UT was somewhere less comfy than his home he would view what happened to the woman as murder?

I suppose that point of view is dependant on circumstances to some extent, but I'm not sure that if UT was a protesting college student or a third-world peasant he'd see what happened to her as homicide. And even if he did, that would not necessarily make it so.

[Undertoad]

Sorry to resurrect this thread but I had no choice once I saw this.



It doesn't say anything about justice or injustice. It doesn't change the death at all. It doesn't give meaning to it.

It's just interesting to see little parts of the US far left holding ideological hands with little parts of the US far right.

The word "martyr" is so dirty now, I shudder to think it's used to describe her.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally posted by katfiche
[ Anti-Zionist is not equivelant to anti-Jew, although the ADL would certainly disagree and does so quite frequently. As for why we are so deeply involved with the Zionist's, I'll leave that up to inquiring minds to draw their own conclusions.

The difficulty with trying to sell me an idea like this one is that an active antizionist who is also anything like pro-Jew is a creature altogether outside of my experience. I mean it -- every last single solitary one I've ever met was a bigot and easily exposed as such.

[wolf]

I find myself wondering if Ms. Corrie would be horrified to find herself lauded on David Duke's website ...

Probably, but you never know ...

[xoxoxoBruce]

attempt to justify her murder.

Should say - attempt to understand her suicide

[jaguar]

It's getting better now they shot one who was wearing a large fluro orange vest helping a woman and child to safety in the head. Of course that was the protesters fault too.

The difficulty with trying to sell me an idea like this one is that an active antizionist who is also anything like pro-Jew is a creature altogether outside of my experience. I mean it -- every last single solitary one I've ever met was a bigot and easily exposed as such.

With your view of the world i'm not too shocked, hell i know jews who are anti-zionist. Of course they're clearly anti-jewish bigots too.

[xoxoxoBruce]

[quote]helping a woman and child to safety in the head. /QUOTE]

They use the restrooms for shelters?

I'm sorry Jag. I couldn't help myself.