6/24/2002: Another Palestinian child

Undertoad · 06-24-2002, 10:09 AM

It's so unfair for me to post this here when the conversation about the mideast is going on in the Current Events forum. Folks who stay mainly in Image of the Day might enjoy checking that discussion out. There's more Cellar here than just IotD!

But anyway, I said at one point that any time I see a kid being indoctrinated in violence and war I would post it, and so I do.

This girl is participating in a celebration of the anniversary of the lynching described in "Proud Murderer" from a few days ago. From an article describing what's happening:

The article describes a "graduation exercise": The kids burned an Israeli flag and recited: "in the name of the martyr Muhamad Al-Dura and the infant martyr Iman Haju, we pledge to continue the Jihad in resistance and in intifada." A girl raised her "bloody hands," then a child dressed as Hamas leader Hassan Nasrallah recited a few lines about how the Hizbullah fought the Israelis and were rewarded from above. The kids carry toy rifles.

"Bloody hands" is in quotes because she doesn't really have bloody hands; she has had her hands dipped in red paint. (Phew!)

The original lynching is described here by a British photographer who was on the scene. He says he thought was the only photographer there (before they stole and destroyed his camera and he had to run for his life) but it seems someone else was there to get that proud murderer photo.

06-24-2002, 10:33 AM

But it's okay because some Jewish guy went to some mounted temple or something and that's what's caused all this. He should be more thoughtful before he travels.

Yelof · 06-24-2002, 10:59 AM

I think he was very thoughtful before he travelled and that is half the problem. He had a good idea of the consequences and his actions since have indicated he wanted to reverse every gain since Oslo and marginalize the Palestinians to the point that a policy of confinement, transfer and occupation becomes practical.

How should we respond to such images, should we conclude that the Palestinian people and their culture are inherently “Evil”, “Alien to our understanding”? that makes them truely a "Them" as in "Us vs Them" or our we to say that an external pressure has been applied for so long as to twist and distort the view of the rest of the world for some Palestinians. How would your nation react to occupation? I am Irish, I know that history made some of my people bitter evil murderers, but and even when the majority of Irish culture supported them in the 70's and 80's, there was hope, clearly (I hope) the Irish were/are not evil. Was Palestinian known for suicide, terrorism and desperation before 1948?

So, of course it is not ok, it is sick, The West Bank and Gaza Strip are pressure cookers for hate, blame the scheming idiot stoking the flames as much disparate idiot blowing himself up.

Undertoad · 06-24-2002, 12:17 PM

How our nations would react to occupation: that's an awesome question. I'm certain that the US would react with resolute and deadly violence to such a condition. After we killed the invaders, we would probably go kill their friends, and then their friends' friends.

Nationalism is serious stuff and if you're the nation that is invaded and violated, you're irate, period.

Which makes the current situation more curious because there has never been a Palestinian state.

And because most of the people of Israel are castoffs or family of castoffs from Arabic countries. There are more Jewish refugees than Palestinian refugees. (They just don't live in camps.) "Get out of our country, you Jewish scum. Go to your own country. And now, get out of your own country, you Jewish scum."

And because the West Bank has been the source of invasions of Israel quite consistently since its creation. At this point, who are the invaders and who the invadees? Who has a nationalistic claim? The cards moved so fast that we haven't been able to follow the queen.

elSicomoro · 06-24-2002, 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
And because most of the people of Israel are castoffs or family of castoffs from Arabic countries. There are more Jewish refugees than Palestinian refugees. (They just don't live in camps.) "Get out of our country, you Jewish scum. Go to your own country. And now, get out of your own country, you Jewish scum."

How are you defining Jewish refugees though, UT? Are you including:

--The settlers previous to statehood?
--Those that fled from lands that are now under Arab control?
--The Russians and Ethiopians that made their way there in the '90s?

Griff · 06-24-2002, 12:44 PM

Its so depressing seeing this stuff. It makes you wonder if there are really enough folks tired enough of the violence to take the potentially fatal step of reaching out to the other side. Maybe Yelof could write a little about the transition in Northern Ireland? Was the IRA generally more underground than Hamas and was the anti-British sentiment less direct than this?

Undertoad · 06-24-2002, 01:53 PM

Hmmm, Syc, I'm not sure. The source I had said that a million Jews moved away from Arabic countries and I *think* they were suggesting that the bulk of this happened soon after statehood.

Count Zero · 06-24-2002, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
And because the West Bank has been the source of invasions of Israel quite consistently since its creation. At this point, who are the invaders and who the invadees? Who has a nationalistic claim? The cards moved so fast that we haven't been able to follow the queen.

This discussion is really just pointless. It's useless to try to argue who actually owns the land. Both Jews and Palestinians live in the region and none of them is moving very soon. They'll have to learn to live together and that's it.

The point is that there is an unbalanced war going on, where thousands and thousand of Palestinians are being murdered only for the sake of it, and that's going on for 30 years with full support from the US (money, weapons, training, propaganda, etc). The Palestinians aren't trying to wipe out the Jews, they're trying to live.

Palestinian terrorism is in no way justifiable by this, but it sure is understandable.

06-24-2002, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Count Zero
The Palestinians aren't trying to wipe out the Jews, they're trying to live.

Palestinian terrorism is in no way justifiable by this, but it sure is understandable.

Do you truly actually believe this? I mean really? I fail to see the correlation between "trying to live" and blowing oneself up in an effort to murder innocent citizens. Is there something I'm missing here? One is trying to live by taking their own life? Huh?

Furthermore, how do you explain Fatah's previous unwillingness to concede Israel's right to exist and Hamas and Islamic Jihad's constant efforts to derail the peace process and destroy Israel? This is their stated goal. It's not a side effect of "trying to live".

Nevermind the 51% of Palestinians that support the destruction of Israel.

I guess "trying to live" nowadays means killing little girls on buses or shooting them point blank in their homes. What about the Israelis that are just trying to live? Where's your argument for them? Rachel Levy was just going to the grocery store for some food. That is "trying to live". She got blown up by a suicide bomber. That is murder.

Oh, sure... not all Palestinians want to see the Jews killed (though apparently some 51% of them do)... but then again, hardly all Israelis are murdering thousands and thousands of Palestinians, only for the sake of it. You sure do fail to mention this, don't you?

Nevermind your complete lack of mention of the thousands of Israelis that have been murdered only for the sake of it.

You can't change the rules for just one side; it's got to apply to all. If the murder of Palestinians is awful and its support by the US government is awful, then the murder of Israelis is just as equally awful, and so is the support of that murder by governments such as Syria, Iran and Iraq and groups such as the Palestinian Authority, Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad, Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, Palestinian Liberation Organization, Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, Democratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine and however many other terrorist-supporting groups exist in the mideast and abroad.

Furthermore, I don't recall any recent news stories about Israeli soldiers walking into crowds of Palestinian civilians and detonating themselves, but I seem to recall an incident last week during morning rush hour where a Palestinian extremist got on a bus and... I don't even need to say it, because you know what happened.

Whereas Israel targets those who target Israel, Palestinian extremists target little kids.

You're right though - just trying to live.

jaxomlotus · 06-24-2002, 06:16 PM

I've got to say - the sheer clarity of opinion posted both by undertoad and Dhamsaic are precisely why this is my favorite discussion forum to read through (even if i don't have much time to participate).

I'm going to be encouraging Worth1000 members to visit here in a big way in the coming days.

06-24-2002, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaxomlotus
undertoad and Dhamsaic

Son of a bitch! Undertoad and dhamsaic.

or Tony and Dave. I don't think The Tone minds, and I don't either. But man, Dhamsaic just looks awful with that capital D.

sleemanj · 06-24-2002, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dhamsaic

Furthermore, I don't recall any recent news stories about Israeli soldiers walking into crowds of Palestinian civilians and detonating themselves.

Jenin. They didn't detonate themselves, but I'm pretty certain that the Israli army gave a good "Crowd" of Palestinians a one way ticket to Paradise there.

jaxomlotus · 06-24-2002, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sleemanj

Jenin. They didn't detonate themselves, but I'm pretty certain that the Israli army gave a good "Crowd" of Palestinians a one way ticket to Paradise there.

another key difference is that where palestinian civilians are killed, the killing is accidental and collateral to the terrorists. Whereas when Israelis are killed it is always intentional and the intended targets are nearly always civilian.

How do I know this? Because Israel, if it so wanted, could drop a small nuke into Palestinian territory and end all terrorism instantly, but has not. During their most recent incursion into Ramallah during Operation Defensive Shield, they sent in ground troops to battle terrorists instead of bombing th place indiscriminately from the safety of the skies so as not to harm civilians.

Does this mean that Palestinian civilians's lives count less than Israelis? Certainly not. But lets put things into perspective by virtue of the intentions of the offenders before demonizing either side.

Want to cry out "massacre" by the Israelis? Look at their arsenal and marvel how few civilians have been killed to date despite the terrorists camping in their midsts and using civilians as shields.

It's pointless for me to even post a response. If it's one thing terrorists apologists know, it's put a spin on everything.

Nic Name · 06-24-2002, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Because Israel, if it so wanted, could drop a small nuke into Palestinian territory and end all terrorism instantly, but has not.

Because the Palestinian territory is "occupied" by Jewish settlements! Refraining from dropping a small nuke is not an indication of any intention not do drive the Palestinians from the West Bank.

elSicomoro · 06-24-2002, 07:03 PM

You guys are a microcosm of sorts.

We have a few people that seem to be pro-Israeli, from the US. We have a few folks from outside the US that seem to be pro-Palestinian. (And my apologies to all if I am mistaking your views here).

But this seems to be the case in the world as a whole. The US are staunch supporters of the State of Israel, while most of the world seems to favor the Palestinians.

So...what are we not connecting on here? Are we just seeing it through different eyes? Are we affected by our media sources (on both sides)? To me, it just seems that there is more to it than our own personal statements (even if loaded with facts).

06-24-2002, 10:09 AM	#1
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	6/24/2002: Another Palestinian child It's so unfair for me to post this here when the conversation about the mideast is going on in the Current Events forum. Folks who stay mainly in Image of the Day might enjoy checking that discussion out. There's more Cellar here than just IotD! But anyway, I said at one point that any time I see a kid being indoctrinated in violence and war I would post it, and so I do. This girl is participating in a celebration of the anniversary of the lynching described in "Proud Murderer" from a few days ago. From an article describing what's happening: The article describes a "graduation exercise": The kids burned an Israeli flag and recited: "in the name of the martyr Muhamad Al-Dura and the infant martyr Iman Haju, we pledge to continue the Jihad in resistance and in intifada." A girl raised her "bloody hands," then a child dressed as Hamas leader Hassan Nasrallah recited a few lines about how the Hizbullah fought the Israelis and were rewarded from above. The kids carry toy rifles. "Bloody hands" is in quotes because she doesn't really have bloody hands; she has had her hands dipped in red paint. (Phew!) The original lynching is described here by a British photographer who was on the scene. He says he thought was the only photographer there (before they stole and destroyed his camera and he had to run for his life) but it seems someone else was there to get that proud murderer photo.

06-24-2002, 10:33 AM	#2
dave Guest Posts: n/a	But it's <b>okay</b> because some Jewish guy went to some mounted temple or something and that's what's caused all this. He should be more thoughtful before he travels.

06-24-2002, 10:59 AM	#3
Yelof neither here nor there Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 179	I think he was very thoughtful before he travelled and that is half the problem. He had a good idea of the consequences and his actions since have indicated he wanted to reverse every gain since Oslo and marginalize the Palestinians to the point that a policy of confinement, transfer and occupation becomes practical. How should we respond to such images, should we conclude that the Palestinian people and their culture are inherently “Evil”, “Alien to our understanding”? that makes them truely a "Them" as in "Us vs Them" or our we to say that an external pressure has been applied for so long as to twist and distort the view of the rest of the world for some Palestinians. How would your nation react to occupation? I am Irish, I know that history made some of my people bitter evil murderers, but and even when the majority of Irish culture supported them in the 70's and 80's, there was hope, clearly (I hope) the Irish were/are not evil. Was Palestinian known for suicide, terrorism and desperation before 1948? So, of course it is not ok, it is sick, The West Bank and Gaza Strip are pressure cookers for hate, blame the scheming idiot stoking the flames as much disparate idiot blowing himself up. Last edited by Yelof; 06-24-2002 at 11:13 AM.

06-24-2002, 12:44 PM	#6
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Its so depressing seeing this stuff. It makes you wonder if there are really enough folks tired enough of the violence to take the potentially fatal step of reaching out to the other side. Maybe Yelof could write a little about the transition in Northern Ireland? Was the IRA generally more underground than Hamas and was the anti-British sentiment less direct than this? __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

06-24-2002, 06:16 PM	#10
jaxomlotus Questionist Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 8	kudos I've got to say - the sheer clarity of opinion posted both by undertoad and Dhamsaic are precisely why this is my favorite discussion forum to read through (even if i don't have much time to participate). I'm going to be encouraging Worth1000 members to visit here in a big way in the coming days.

06-24-2002, 12:17 PM	#4
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	How our nations would react to occupation: that's an awesome question. I'm certain that the US would react with resolute and deadly violence to such a condition. After we killed the invaders, we would probably go kill their friends, and then their friends' friends. Nationalism is serious stuff and if you're the nation that is invaded and violated, you're irate, period. Which makes the current situation more curious because there has never been a Palestinian state. And because most of the people of Israel are castoffs or family of castoffs from Arabic countries. There are more Jewish refugees than Palestinian refugees. (They just don't live in camps.) "Get out of our country, you Jewish scum. Go to your own country. And now, get out of your own country, you Jewish scum." And because the West Bank has been the source of invasions of Israel quite consistently since its creation. At this point, who are the invaders and who the invadees? Who has a nationalistic claim? The cards moved so fast that we haven't been able to follow the queen.

06-24-2002, 01:53 PM	#7
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Hmmm, Syc, I'm not sure. The source I had said that a million Jews moved away from Arabic countries and I think they were suggesting that the bulk of this happened soon after statehood.

06-24-2002, 07:03 PM	#15
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	You guys are a microcosm of sorts. We have a few people that seem to be pro-Israeli, from the US. We have a few folks from outside the US that seem to be pro-Palestinian. (And my apologies to all if I am mistaking your views here). But this seems to be the case in the world as a whole. The US are staunch supporters of the State of Israel, while most of the world seems to favor the Palestinians. So...what are we not connecting on here? Are we just seeing it through different eyes? Are we affected by our media sources (on both sides)? To me, it just seems that there is more to it than our own personal statements (even if loaded with facts). Last edited by elSicomoro; 06-24-2002 at 08:43 PM.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)