The more things change ...

[orthodoc]

the more they stay the same.

I mentioned my second son and his difficulties in another thread; essentially he's had many diagnoses, from Asperger's to PDD NOS to early onset bipolar disorder (definitely accurate) to borderline personality disorder, to ... many things. He's also an addict; I've gone through rehab programs with him as his family support member; he's been in legal trouble for drugs in college, had multiple underage drinking charges, and he continues to drink heavily now in spite of major health problems that make it even more dangerous than usual.

My second son can be extremely, egregiously socially inappropriate. Usually with language, but also with stories and conversation inappropriate to the gathering, or just inappropriate anywhere. He makes up a lot of stuff and I think wants to impress people, but leaves them speechless (he's lost numerous jobs over this). This week he'd been very profane in his language, unusually so even for him; and he was drinking heavily. My third son asked if I could speak with son #2 about his language, as a friend was coming for Thanksgiving dinner and bringing her 8 year old brother. The friend and brother are from an extremely conservative culture and my 3rd son knew that if they heard language of the sort my second son was using, she would excuse them both and return home.

I considered it reasonable to ask my second son to watch his language in the context of the rest of us doing so as well, given that we'd be having guests and a child in particular. I was as tactful as I could figure out how to be. However, my second son, while naive and at times unable to grasp social situations, is hyper-sensitive to criticism whether explicit or implied. He took extreme offense and announced that he would return to his apartment and perhaps, maybe, come for dinner but that would be all. He kept his word - left on Thanksgiving day after being sure to find me and tell me that he was going, and why, and then returned just in time for dinner after multiple texts from his father and sister. He didn't speak to me the entire time and left right after dinner without saying goodbye to me (but taking leave of the others). He hasn't been in touch today. I expect I won't see him before I return to WV.

There's nothing I can do about this, I realize. It's in his court. It just hurts that, after so many years, so much difficulty, so many violent episodes ... after going to pick him up from college and finding him skeleton-thin from drugs and utterly hostile, and sitting up nights with him through his withdrawal seizures and panic attacks, and so on ... he still considers me the villain. He really believes I am the cause of all his misfortunes. I will always be the villain.

But this year, with things as they are, I'd hoped for a positive visit. I don't want to be on bad terms. And I'm so sad that, given how things are with my health, he's more interested in taking offense where he can than in spending some time. Next time he's depressed, he'll be in touch and I'll take his call at 3:00 am and offer support.

I'm just sad. Stick a fork in me, I'm done. Except I won't ever be.

[Clodfobble]

Sorry, ortho.

[orthodoc]

Thank you, Clod. I should add that I do know I need to set better boundaries. There are behaviors I shouldn't tolerate. I've been on a board for parents of children with various diagnoses for years, and it's easy to see others' situations and recommend boundaries; harder to apply my own advice to myself! However, I know I need to put some firm boundaries in place over the next while. In the past I've always been able to cope, albeit with heartache and frustration, but now I don't have the resilience I did before. He's 24, I know he knows right from wrong at least in basic terms, and reasonable boundaries aren't going to hurt him. He just doesn't see social interactions as anyone else does. His memories, his perceptions, are all different from everyone else's. He really believes he's been hard done by, been unjustly punished or accused or treated, in the past. Right now, I think he truly feels offended ... but he didn't have to go out of his way to be sure I felt bad (I did try to talk with him after, tried to explain and clarify. It didn't matter.). He knows how to hurt me, that's the thing about close relationships.

It's time for some tough love, I think. Somehow it'll get turned back on me, but I can't take this stress. And maybe it'll work out better ... I have a sister who has borderline personality disorder, and taking a big step back and setting some boundaries did wonders for our relationship. We actually have one now. I know what to do ... it's just harder with a child.

[glatt]

That sounds really challenging. I'm sorry you have to deal with this.

[xoxoxoBruce]

After all these years of being understanding, supportive, and the anchor, for not only your kids but apparently some others in your family, I think you have every right to expect them to reciprocate while you're going through all this particularly stressful shit.

You say #2 went out of his way to make you feel bad but I wonder if that's true. If you're right saying that he feels you offended him unjustly, I can understand him avoiding interaction, but couldn't that be to spare his own feelings rather than to deliberately hurt yours? Just throwing that out there, you certainly know him best, but your description of past behavior sounds like he's pretty self centered in his thinking.

Setting boundaries is probably a good idea, especially if he's picked up being manipulative from watching it work for another family member. Besides, you've tried most everything else, and you don't need the bullshit.

Aw, don't mind me, just thinking out loud. Whatever happens we still care and we'll be cheering for ya.

[footfootfoot]

It sounds like a giant buzzkill, Ortho. Sorry.

[limey]

Sorry to see you're getting trouble from your second son. I'm with Bruce here - cheering for you, wishing I could do more but always willing to lead an ear.

Sent by thought transference.

[Trilby]

Ortho-my heart goes out to the both of you.

My son has/had OCD so bad that i HAD to throw him out at the age of 20. I couldn't take it anymore. He refused all help (I took him to three docs who all gave the same diagnosis and RX which he refused to take) and I offered counselling and bought books, etc. etc. Finally, it was him or me and I'd had enough. I love him so much-but I had to protect myself. He was getting violent if I accidentally interrupted a ritual-which were fucking constant.


Best thing for him. He's even better with his OCD now as he lives alone and has no one to bully about WHY he fucked up his hand washing routine or whatever. He IS better but I felt like a mean mommy, too. My dad had PLENTY to say about it; how wrong I was, etc etc. But his anxiety made me anxious and then I would binge drink.

Draw the line and stick to it. He's an adult now and you've lead him to the place where he can get healthy-if he doesn't go for it, that's on him.

[orthodoc]

Thank you, guys. I'm sorry about these whiny threads. One of these days I'll start a happy thread (witty is beyond my abilities) and leave you all speechless with shock!

Morning is wiser than evening; the old Russian proverb is true. At least, while reality hasn't changed, I feel a little better this morning about setting boundaries. I think you're right, Bruce, in that my son wouldn't think about what's appropriate (or kind to the feelings of others) to do in a situation, he'd just do whatever spared his feelings most. But he also sought me out to be sure I knew he was following through on his plan to absent himself because I'd offended him. It ruins a good sulk if no one knows about it.

Having tried 'most everything else over the years, I'm left with setting boundaries and taking the attitude of 'deal with it'. And as you say, Tril, I bet in the long term it'll be better all round. My wish/habit of always trying to ensure my family is happy, making sure they all know I love them unconditionally, isn't the healthiest thing (I know where it comes from but it's still problematic). If my son doesn't know by now that I love him, he'll never figure it out. Tolerating his manipulation just reinforces his bad habits. Something i'm working on right now is identifying and refusing to accept disrespectful or otherwise bad treatment. I know that people will treat you as badly as you let them. I also know that setting boundaries with my sister worked well for both of us; applying it to my son is a no-brainer in theory. A little harder in practice, but it has to be done.

I like your advice, Tril - yes, he is an adult and I've done everything I can. The choices now are his to make. I will print this out on 8.5 x 11" paper and stick it to my bathroom mirror! Read it over and over until it really sticks.

[Griff]

Good luck ortho, it sounds like you're working it out.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Ortho, you might be interested in this book review.

“There is no such thing as reproduction,” Solomon points out on the first page, only acts of “production.” And despite the fact that we never know quite what — or whom — we’ll produce, it’s one of the least bitter truths of human existence that, regardless of what pain and anguish they put us through, we never ever regret our children. “It is not suffering that is precious,” he notes when recalling the depths of his depression, “but the concentric pearlescence with which we contain it.”

[orthodoc]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

Ortho, you might be interested in this book review.

Thanks, Bruce. Yes, it's true - I believe we never regret our children. I know I don't. Each is unique, amazing, and challenging. Parenting is an experience I've never regretted. Some of my decisions during that time? Sure. But never the decision to become a parent.

What we have left - as us - is much less than what we had when we married ... to paraphrase a quote from the article ... I find this ironic in the extreme. My difficulty lies in wondering whether, had I left before my two younger children were born, my two oldest children would have been healthy, happy adults. Should I wish my two youngest unborn? How could I do that?

And the quote from the mother of the schizophrenic child ... of course I was more frivolous before my oldest was handed that diagnosis. But I still wonder, would my child have become schizophrenic if I'd left immediately, when there was just neglect, before the active abuse started? If I'd just refused to tolerate my ex organizing his life as if he were still single, if I'd refused to tolerate him leaving us out of his schedule other than expecting dinner and sex on a regular basis? That was before he started in on me and the kids in earnest; it was just selfishness then. If I'd left before the worst happened, would my oldest son be happy and healthy now? Is his diagnosis really schizophrenia, or do his problems stem exclusively, as he believes, from his father's abuse? If I had left sooner, would my second son not have developed borderline personality disorder and become addicted to whatever substance is most convenient?

Where do genes leave off? Where does environment take over? What was outside my control and what is my permanent responsibility? To whom, if anyone, am I accountable for the burdens my children bear?

I can decide to protect myself, to draw boundaries and let my second son know what's not acceptable. This is probably healthy; it will probably help him in his future relationships, if not in his relationship with me. But is this not still self-centered, even if it has benefits for him? If I failed in my responsibility to my children during the years of abuse, through not managing to identify, label, and solve the problem quickly, are my two oldest sons not right in holding me to account?

[Clodfobble]

"Holding to account" only works if there are specific reparations that can be given. When there's nothing you can do about the past, when you don't have a magic button to make them whole again, then no, they don't have a right to punish you and call it deserved. If one of them were asking you to, for example, pay for therapy, then it might be worth examining how much of a role you may or may not have played in who they are today. But assigning blame just for blame's sake is no good for anyone.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Agreed, life doesn't have a reset button, no Groundhog Day. We do what we do, and sometimes we fuck up. Recognizing you made a wrong move, to avoid making it again, is smart. But beating yourself up with coulda, shoulda, woulda, doesn't help, and is actually counterproductive.

Also, when we spend a lot of time analyzing past mistakes, it's too easy to dismiss all the right decisions we made. You don't want to lament, "For 20 years, Pierre, he ____. Then he _____ one time, and they call him Pierre the ________. Sacre bleu!

[orthodoc]

I should clarify: my oldest isn't blaming me or holding me to account. It was difficult to hear that he believes all of his problems are due, directly or indirectly, to his father's behaviors. That may or may not be accurate, but it puts my role under the microscope as well. My son sees the difference as one where he can see and understand the reasons for what I did or didn't do, whereas there is no 'why' in his father's case. He isn't looking to punish, just seeking to move forward. Distancing himself from his father is part of that.

My ex's abuse was directed specifically at me, although I know his rages affected everyone indirectly. I did try my best back then to get away. I ended up making decisions that I thought would be most protective of my kids. I was terrified of losing custody through not being able to support them financially (the legal advice I got at that time was terrible); I didn't want even unsupervised visits, far less that, to happen. I thought it would be better to stay where I could always put myself between him and them, always know what was going on. If I'd known then what I know now I would have acted differently, but that's a moot point.

I know that living in the past or obsessing on woulda/coulda/shoulda is unhelpful. I have to keep the events of the past in mind, hopefully learn from them, but not dwell there. I hope my recent departure from the marriage at least validates some of my son's perceptions.