Another positive step by my native state into the modern age...

elSicomoro · 09-14-2003, 05:57 PM

In case you didn't know, I'm originally from Missouri.

Missouri is the one of the last holdouts when it comes to guns--the state doesn't allow people to carry concealed weapons. It was a ballot proposition in 1999, and lost by a narrow margin--mainly due to the heavy "no" vote in St. Louis City and County (which contain about 25% of the state's population).

All that changes October 11th. The Missouri legislature has narrowly overrode a veto by Gov. Bob Holden to pass a bill "directing county sheriffs to issue licenses to carry concealed weapons to residents who meet certain requirements".

I haven't been keeping up with the news back home recently--this issue has been talked about for months, but I can't believe they actually passed it.

I haven't read the real nitty gritty on it, other than what the St. Louis Post-Dispatch has written. But it's definitely a good thing--particularly in St. Louis City. I think it will make things safer, and perhaps encourage more people to move to my native city--which has been losing population since the 1930s. Although initially, I sense it will spark some racial tensions. Hopefully, that will be just a mere concern in my own head.

And it gives people one less thing to make fun of when it comes to Missouri...just one though. There are still plenty of other things--though Missouri is nowhere near as bad as, say, Arkansas.

Elspode · 09-14-2003, 06:35 PM

I'm just now beginning the shopping process for an affordable, compact, concealable and easily-packed piece, and I would appreciate suggestions and/or links to a suitable daily carry weapon.

The thing about concealed carry is that people are doing it anyway...and they are largely the people that we non-criminals need to protect ourselves against. Laws making concealed-carry illegal only restrain the law-abiding from packing, not the bad guys.

I am not a gun nut. I am a long time resident of a city which I have watched become increasingly violent and crime-ridden over the past 30 years of my adulthood. I no longer feel safe in the formerly bucolic suburb in which I live. My children have been attacked and threatened, my sister was pistol whipped in her own front yard some years ago (the same house in which I now live), my posessions have been stolen from my property and my vehicle, my son's apartment was burglarized this past Spring (while he slept in his own bed!), and I have felt personally unsafe when walking the streets of both Grandview and Kansas City.

I will soon be packing, and I will take training to learn appropriate use (even though I've been shooting since I was young, I don't do it frequently enough to be comfortable about concealed carry and self-defense at present without some training).

It is a good thing for Missouri and for honest, law-abiding citizens in Missouri.

wolf · 09-14-2003, 07:48 PM

What you get is going to depend on what you're going to use it for. Obviously for daily concealed carry you're going to want something that won't show too badly under your clothing (which is in part a function of the type of holster you get).

You probably know by know that my first suggestion would be a Glock, but I know that not everybody likes combat tupperware.

About how much do you want to spend?

slang · 09-14-2003, 08:57 PM

Quote:

It is a good thing for Missouri and for honest, law-abiding citizens in Missouri.

It sure can be. You'll also have to think long and hard how you might use a firearm in a variety of given situations too though.

Here in Pa., a handgun is only to be used in denfense of your own life. I think they missed the boat on this one though as there are several tangent possibilities. Let me explain.

I have often said that carrying a handgun is beneficial to the society as a whole, much to the astonishment of non-gunners. Think about a handgun as a tool instead an instrument of death and you might see my point. Just because a person has a gun doesnt mean someone will die or even be injured in a confrontation. If a handgun is a tool, then it may be used for something other than killing someone. Firing a handgun into the air or into the ground in a life or death situation can be an overwhelming *distraction*. It may give someone time to run, break a perp's concentration or just scare the shit out of someone out of control, thus diffusing a potentially deadly situation, while at the same time demonstrating that you are in fact armed and the gun is in fact loaded. It also gets a lot of attention from bystanders and the police will surely be called. People are conditioned to think you must shoot someone or shoot at them for a handgun to be effective. This is not true as the majority of confrontations with guns in the hands of citizens are rarely fired. In this way, having the people armed is a benefit to all of us.

Another is the fear factor. Lots of people are just plain fearful. Allowing them their 2a rights gives them a bit of security. Rightly or wrongly many white people are fearful of urban blacks. This fear is obvious to anyone paying attention and IMO plays a major part in people getting attacked/mugged. If you have some protection, a handgun concealed, then people arent nearly as intimidating and they may even actually warm up to you. I have been the only white guy in sight in many occassions. Non-whites in these cases see that I am not fearful of them and we get along just fine. The handgun is a security device for my own mind. It alows me to hang out with all types of people without shitting my rural drawers.

The last example I have is one of being a witness. How many cases are unsolved because no one was watching an act of violence or too scared to testify in court? My guess is many. If *I* see something suspicious, I'll look into it. I may only pass by but I know if the shit hits the fan and someone shoots at me I can shoot back. In this way I am not as easily intimidated and can witness whats going on. Some guys are acting shifty down the block, I can sit on someone's front step and watch them watching me. They know I can see them and I have some interest in watching them, they'll probably move on. And I didnt even draw my gun! It works! Having and carrying a concealed handgun encourages good citizenship!

So, I'm very happy for Missouri and it's residents. Crime will soon be on the decline, peoples of all races can mingle without fear (founded or unfounded) and people will feel empowered by their newfound 2a rights!

OK, so I know I'm over the top here but hey, I havent posted in a while.

xoxoxoBruce · 09-14-2003, 09:53 PM

Applause, applause.

Oh...Sig Sauer P230SL.

09-14-2003, 11:13 PM

Glock 21, Glock 21, Glock 21!

Elspode · 09-16-2003, 01:05 PM

Poor, poor, poor...that's me! Please indicate expected price ranges for suggested concealables. I'm pretty sure I want a semi-auto, not a wheelgun, because they tend to give you more shots in a smaller package. Caliber? Well, .22 is out, but I'm open to suggestions about other bores.

Slangster! Great to see you back!

09-16-2003, 01:30 PM

Heh. The 21 is about $550. It's a full size .45 with a ten round mag. You don't actually want to be carrying it. I was kidding.

(But it makes a goodie for defending the home! Or totally destroying just about anything.)

wolf · 09-16-2003, 01:43 PM

Glocks run around $500ish new, you can get factory refurbished for around $475 (these are police department turn-ins that have had all the powdered sugar and coffee blown out of 'em and are completely rebuilt). Frankly, my recommendation remains to go with something like the Glock ... for reliabilty you really can't fault 'em, and I think it's worth the little bit of extra bucks (so says the woman who gets drool on the H&Ks every time she's in the store, even given that you can buy two Glocks for every H&K you take home).

Caliber is a tricky issue. Convential wisdom of course says that bigger is better, but if the gun is too big to easily conceal ... well, as the saying goes, a .32 in the pocket beats a .45 in the drawer at home.

I happen to like the .40, personally, midway between a 9mm and a .45, readily available (unlike the 10mm, which you have a bitch of a time finding ammo for). There have been a lot of studies on what are called "one shot stops" and the .40 does a lot better than a 9mm and only slightly less well than a .45, based on data collected from the streets, rather than just lab test of distance of penetration in gelatin.

It's also of a middling price to shoot in terms of ammo cost. Something in a 9mm would probably do you nicely. Anything smaller than that has a side-issue of sometimes bouncing off of heavy canvas or leather clothing.

Take a peek at Kel-Tec. They have a small frame 9mm that a lot of people really like. I don't have a P-11 myself, but they are purported to be very reliable and accurate. Store prices for new weapons are LOWER than the prices specified on the company website. (I have gotten Kel-Tec products for at least $50 lower than the prices they show.) Also, Kel-Tec's customer service is excellent. The P3AT is brand new, and they are having some "issues" which are being quickly resolved.

Before buying anything though, try it out. Most ranges that are associated with gunshops have a rental case ... try before you buy.

Fair warning ... they ARE like potato chips.

If you are just looking for a home defense weapon, rather than something to carry, go for a shotgun. Heck, go for a shotgun anyway. You can buy them at flea markets pretty cheap. Think of the pistol in the nightstand as a means of getting to the shotgun in a home defense situation. Oh, and get a pump rather than a break-open ... two reasons, one is that you'll have more shells available to you, and two, nothing says "you're fucked" to a burglar like hearing that (*chick-chunk*) sound in the total quiet of a darkened house.

(Gun control laws are like OSHA for criminals...)

Undertoad · 09-16-2003, 02:35 PM

I remember thinking that the Glock safety mechanism is kind of minimal? Would you carry it without a chambered round?

09-16-2003, 03:02 PM

It's not minimal. You can't shoot a Glock unless you grip the handle and pull the trigger, period. Yes, there is no external safety. But you shouldn't be pointing a gun at something you don't intend to destroy anyway.

Undertoad · 09-16-2003, 03:27 PM

Does that include when it's holstered and pointing at your nads?

09-16-2003, 03:36 PM

It's not going to go off when it's holstered. If you're holding it, hand around the grip, finger on the trigger and pointed at your nads, then you are a dumb mother fucker.

Glocks don't have an external safety. Okay. But if you could somehow suspend the gun in mid-air and just pull the trigger (without gripping the gun), it wouldn't go off. If you held it by the barrel and then pushed the trigger with your finger, it wouldn't go off. For it to go off, you have to intend for it to go off.

Cam · 09-16-2003, 03:40 PM

Idiots can manage nearly anything. Not saying anyone here is an idiot, just making a general observation. Then again maybe I'm wrong, having hardly any experience with hand guns, let along any with a Glock, it's very likely an idiot couldn't fire it without having a hand around the grip.

09-16-2003, 03:42 PM

Not even a genius could do it unless they had disassembled the gun and removed all safety functionality. Glocks actually have three different safety functions built in (as opposed to the one that many guns have). Read up about 'em. It's not getting fired unless you want it to.

09-14-2003, 05:57 PM	#1
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	Another positive step by my native state into the modern age... In case you didn't know, I'm originally from Missouri. Missouri is the one of the last holdouts when it comes to guns--the state doesn't allow people to carry concealed weapons. It was a ballot proposition in 1999, and lost by a narrow margin--mainly due to the heavy "no" vote in St. Louis City and County (which contain about 25% of the state's population). All that changes October 11th. The Missouri legislature has narrowly overrode a veto by Gov. Bob Holden to pass a bill "directing county sheriffs to issue licenses to carry concealed weapons to residents who meet certain requirements". I haven't been keeping up with the news back home recently--this issue has been talked about for months, but I can't believe they actually passed it. I haven't read the real nitty gritty on it, other than what the St. Louis Post-Dispatch has written. But it's definitely a good thing--particularly in St. Louis City. I think it will make things safer, and perhaps encourage more people to move to my native city--which has been losing population since the 1930s. Although initially, I sense it will spark some racial tensions. Hopefully, that will be just a mere concern in my own head. And it gives people one less thing to make fun of when it comes to Missouri...just one though. There are still plenty of other things--though Missouri is nowhere near as bad as, say, Arkansas.

09-14-2003, 06:35 PM	#2
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	I'm just now beginning the shopping process for an affordable, compact, concealable and easily-packed piece, and I would appreciate suggestions and/or links to a suitable daily carry weapon. The thing about concealed carry is that people are doing it anyway...and they are largely the people that we non-criminals need to protect ourselves against. Laws making concealed-carry illegal only restrain the law-abiding from packing, not the bad guys. I am not a gun nut. I am a long time resident of a city which I have watched become increasingly violent and crime-ridden over the past 30 years of my adulthood. I no longer feel safe in the formerly bucolic suburb in which I live. My children have been attacked and threatened, my sister was pistol whipped in her own front yard some years ago (the same house in which I now live), my posessions have been stolen from my property and my vehicle, my son's apartment was burglarized this past Spring (while he slept in his own bed!), and I have felt personally unsafe when walking the streets of both Grandview and Kansas City. I will soon be packing, and I will take training to learn appropriate use (even though I've been shooting since I was young, I don't do it frequently enough to be comfortable about concealed carry and self-defense at present without some training). It is a good thing for Missouri and for honest, law-abiding citizens in Missouri. __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

09-14-2003, 07:48 PM	#3
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	What you get is going to depend on what you're going to use it for. Obviously for daily concealed carry you're going to want something that won't show too badly under your clothing (which is in part a function of the type of holster you get). You probably know by know that my first suggestion would be a Glock, but I know that not everybody likes combat tupperware. About how much do you want to spend? __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

09-14-2003, 09:53 PM	#5
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Applause, applause. Oh...Sig Sauer P230SL. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump. Last edited by xoxoxoBruce; 09-14-2003 at 09:57 PM.

09-16-2003, 01:05 PM	#7
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	Poor, poor, poor...that's me! Please indicate expected price ranges for suggested concealables. I'm pretty sure I want a semi-auto, not a wheelgun, because they tend to give you more shots in a smaller package. Caliber? Well, .22 is out, but I'm open to suggestions about other bores. Slangster! Great to see you back! __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

09-14-2003, 11:13 PM	#6
dave Guest Posts: n/a	Glock 21, Glock 21, Glock 21!

09-16-2003, 01:30 PM	#8
dave Guest Posts: n/a	Heh. The 21 is about $550. It's a full size .45 with a ten round mag. You don't actually want to be carrying it. I was kidding. (But it makes a goodie for defending the home! Or totally destroying just about anything.)

09-16-2003, 01:43 PM	#9
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Glocks run around $500ish new, you can get factory refurbished for around $475 (these are police department turn-ins that have had all the powdered sugar and coffee blown out of 'em and are completely rebuilt). Frankly, my recommendation remains to go with something like the Glock ... for reliabilty you really can't fault 'em, and I think it's worth the little bit of extra bucks (so says the woman who gets drool on the H&Ks every time she's in the store, even given that you can buy two Glocks for every H&K you take home). Caliber is a tricky issue. Convential wisdom of course says that bigger is better, but if the gun is too big to easily conceal ... well, as the saying goes, a .32 in the pocket beats a .45 in the drawer at home. I happen to like the .40, personally, midway between a 9mm and a .45, readily available (unlike the 10mm, which you have a bitch of a time finding ammo for). There have been a lot of studies on what are called "one shot stops" and the .40 does a lot better than a 9mm and only slightly less well than a .45, based on data collected from the streets, rather than just lab test of distance of penetration in gelatin. It's also of a middling price to shoot in terms of ammo cost. Something in a 9mm would probably do you nicely. Anything smaller than that has a side-issue of sometimes bouncing off of heavy canvas or leather clothing. Take a peek at Kel-Tec. They have a small frame 9mm that a lot of people really like. I don't have a P-11 myself, but they are purported to be very reliable and accurate. Store prices for new weapons are LOWER than the prices specified on the company website. (I have gotten Kel-Tec products for at least $50 lower than the prices they show.) Also, Kel-Tec's customer service is excellent. The P3AT is brand new, and they are having some "issues" which are being quickly resolved. Before buying anything though, try it out. Most ranges that are associated with gunshops have a rental case ... try before you buy. Fair warning ... they ARE like potato chips. If you are just looking for a home defense weapon, rather than something to carry, go for a shotgun. Heck, go for a shotgun anyway. You can buy them at flea markets pretty cheap. Think of the pistol in the nightstand as a means of getting to the shotgun in a home defense situation. Oh, and get a pump rather than a break-open ... two reasons, one is that you'll have more shells available to you, and two, nothing says "you're fucked" to a burglar like hearing that (chick-chunk) sound in the total quiet of a darkened house. (Gun control laws are like OSHA for criminals...) __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

09-16-2003, 02:35 PM	#10
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	I remember thinking that the Glock safety mechanism is kind of minimal? Would you carry it without a chambered round?

09-16-2003, 03:02 PM	#11
dave Guest Posts: n/a	It's not minimal. You can't shoot a Glock unless you grip the handle and pull the trigger, period. Yes, there is no external safety. But you shouldn't be pointing a gun at something you don't intend to destroy anyway.

09-16-2003, 03:27 PM	#12
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Does that include when it's holstered and pointing at your nads?

09-16-2003, 03:36 PM	#13
dave Guest Posts: n/a	It's not going to go off when it's holstered. If you're holding it, hand around the grip, finger on the trigger and pointed at your nads, then you are a dumb mother fucker. Glocks don't have an external safety. Okay. But if you could somehow suspend the gun in mid-air and just pull the trigger (without gripping the gun), it wouldn't go off. If you held it by the barrel and then pushed the trigger with your finger, it wouldn't go off. For it to go off, you have to intend for it to go off.

09-16-2003, 03:40 PM	#14
Cam dripping with ignorance Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Grand Forks ND Posts: 642	Idiots can manage nearly anything. Not saying anyone here is an idiot, just making a general observation. Then again maybe I'm wrong, having hardly any experience with hand guns, let along any with a Glock, it's very likely an idiot couldn't fire it without having a hand around the grip. __________________ After the seventh beer I generally try and stay away from the keyboard, I apologize for what happens when I fail.

09-16-2003, 03:42 PM	#15
dave Guest Posts: n/a	Not even a genius could do it unless they had disassembled the gun and removed all safety functionality. Glocks actually have three different safety functions built in (as opposed to the one that many guns have). Read up about 'em. It's not getting fired unless you want it to.

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