Christians and Pagans - Page 5

daniwong · 09-23-2003, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Whit
      I've been meaning to ask you witches, do you really weigh the same as a duck? (If you don't get the reference let it slide)

Ok - that was funny. And probably sad that I got it right off the bat.

Onyx - honey I am so sorry. That totally sucks.

And all of you - thank you. What I basically have been following all my life and haven't been able to put into words has been clarified in this post and helped me to research my path. I just want to thank you for reinforcing in my mind that I am not a wacko.

Elspode · 09-23-2003, 09:47 PM

Chalk up another "I think I've always been a Witch and didn't know it until now" to the 'Net savvy Pagans of the world!

daniwong · 09-24-2003, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Elspode
Chalk up another "I think I've always been a Witch and didn't know it until now" to the 'Net savvy Pagans of the world!

I guess. It was just really odd reading this post and the other one. It was like a light bulb going off. (Being as I was raised a swedish baptist) So now - I have research and reading to do LOL. Any suggestions elspode? (and others that I can't think of)

OnyxCougar · 09-24-2003, 07:00 PM

I recommend reading alot of everything to start out. Then once you find a subject you enjoy more then others, read alot of different authors on the same subject. It's important not to narrow your authors or your initial subject matter.

That being said, I enjoy Scott Cunningham. I've also got Witches Bible. It's heavy reading, and definitely something to be read in small chunks, but it's a good basis to start with.

I enjoy divination, so I have a general book on different types of that, and then I have
The Runic Workbook, several books on I Ching (I Ching in 10 minutes is a great starter) and my favorite, tarot. For the very beginner, get a Rider-Waite Deck with a book, then once you're more comfortable, go to your local magickal dealer and look at their decks. If one feels right, get it.

Anyway, I'm tangenting. So yeah. start with general books and then narrow down what you're interested in. You'll have a great library in no time!

Whit · 09-24-2003, 07:08 PM

      Hi there Dani, nice to see you venture out of the IOTD area. Enjoy the rest of the Cellar.

Quote:

From Dani:
...that was funny. And probably sad that I got it right off the bat.

      Nah, I was hedging my bets with that reference. If you scroll down to the 'Silliness' thread from awhile back you'll see there are a lot of Monty Python fans around here.

      Hey, OC. Tell Steve he has my deepest condolenses on the loss of his Yngwie singed quitar. I have muscian friends that would give up testicles for such an item. Sorry for you own losses as well.

OnyxCougar · 09-24-2003, 07:59 PM

I told him. He pressed his lips together and nodded thanks.

And in my previous post, I said "have" when I really meant "had." **sigh**

Elspode · 09-24-2003, 08:38 PM

Dani:

I agree with OC that Cunningham is a good starting point. Although controversial, Silver Ravenwolf is a good Wicca 101 level writer as well. "To Ride a Silver Broomstick" is as good a place as any to begin. The Farrars' "Witches Bible" is an excellent second step.

Be aware that, when you read different authors, you are going to get varying points of view about what one would think was the same topic. The Farrars', for instance, are steeped in the genuine, first-level after Gardner and Alexander type of Wicca, and the modern (particularly American) practice of the Craft has really begun to deviate in many substantial ways from the origins of Wicca as a religion.

Also - and this is really, really important - *ask questions* of people who practice. It is good if you can determine that they are not radical flakes first, though. There are just as many loonie Wiccans as they are crazy christians, bonkers buddhists and slap-happy satanists, so watch out for them. If you decide to find a group to work and study with, try and become familiar with the Bonewits evaluatory scale, found at http://www.celticcrow.com/bonew.html .

It is a no-nonsense, logical and practical way of evaluating groups to see if they are reasonably down to earth (hey, all of Pagan types are a little flaky and weird) or outright cultists. It is a scary world out there, and scary people who think they are Pagan can be the scariest of them all. Just ask OC, I think she knows better than most of us.

Finding a reputable and generous teacher can be the best thing for someone interested in starting down the Wiccan path, but it isn't precisely necessary. There's tons of stuff in print and online, but like everything else, *not all of it is necessarily right, or even reasonable*, so again, ask questions, use evaluative thought processes...and always, always be safe.

Keep us posted! For a very good online general resource regarding Wiccan and other Pagan paths, I recommend www.witchvox.com .

wolf · 09-24-2003, 11:07 PM

Although I despise her radical left politics, I really liked Starhawk's The Spiral Dance. It's more intermediate than introductory level, but very good.

I also appreciated Cunningham's books, Wicca and Living Wicca provide very good introductions for solitary practitioners, and much of his information is adaptable for coveners. His guides (to herbs, crystals, and pretty much everything else) are indispensible magickal resouce works.

Be wary of much else of what Llewellyn publishes though ... in most fields, as Sturgeon's Law tells us, 99% of everything is crap. For Llewellen Publishing that goes up to about 99.7% ... (okay, maybe it's not really THAT bad, but they tend to have a lot of light and fluffy "whitelighter" books.)

Elspode · 09-25-2003, 12:42 AM

Llewellyn is a victim of its own success, but I do think it is somewhat true that they tend to exclude a less "fluffy" sort of writer. That being said, I have just finished engaging three of their more interesting authors to speak at our 2004 Pagan Fest. Donald Michael Kraig, Russell Buddy Helm and Ann Moura.

It is difficult to make a blanket indictment of a single publisher, but Llewellyn has brought a lot more information to the public than was ever available before, but not all of that information is good or even useful. I'm not a huge Llewellyn fan, but I do have to say that, from a festival production standpoint, they have been *extremely* cooperative, solicitous, helpful and generous (we get free books and stuff from them to review for our organizational newsletter now, too, BTW, so that's a nice bonus).

Whit · 09-28-2003, 10:04 AM

      Hey, I was just railing im the X-mas thread and when Ep posted I wondered what you Wiccan's do for x-mass? I suspect, much like some jewish friends I've had, you celebrate it as a cultural event and leave out the religion.

wolf · 09-28-2003, 07:03 PM

We have Yule, which is all the joyous fellowship, the gift giving, the green and red, the holly, the mistletoe, the evergreen tree, the lights, the yule log, the feasting, the ... well pretty much all of the secular stuff is actually pagan.

Oh, and the bunnies and the chickies and the chocolate at Easter ... and the name Easter ... that's all pagan too.

Whit · 09-28-2003, 10:21 PM

      Well that's just darn convienient. No one knows what you're really celebrating... Kind of like when I start laughing and no one is sure what caused it. Wait... Maybe that's a bad example...

Elspode · 09-29-2003, 09:22 AM

Yule (Winter Solstice) celebrates the rebirth of the Sun King, who dies at Mabon (Autumnal Equinox) , enters the Underworld at Samhain (Halloween), and then is reborn at the Winter Solstice.

He's also his own son...pretty cool trick, huh?

Whit · 09-29-2003, 12:08 PM

      Eh, being his own son is also done by the Jesus with the whole trinity thing. Big deal, I know of a family in Oklahoma that makes that seem mundane...

      Interesting though, that's the traditional literary description of the "hero's journey." Of course that type of thing is common in many religions. Even Jesus went to hell for a few days.

      Of course, if the sun king is connected to things warming up, I like him more.

      I was just thinking, this is clearly a case of a christian holiday being transposed. Due to biblical description most people who study the bible don't think Dec. 25 was the date of Jesus' birth it must have just been convenient to change the name of the celebration due to the Pagan holiday.
      Damn guys, is Halloween the only holiday celebrated by pagans and non-pagans alike that hasn't been converted to a 'Christian' holiday?

Dagney · 09-29-2003, 12:28 PM

Well, if you think of it, Halloween is sometimes called "All Hallow'ds Eve" which comes before All Saint's Day on 11/1. So, even there it's somewhat been absorbed by the Christian belief system.

Dagney
(and I didn't forget the promise to dig out my notes on Samhain and other holidays for you Whit, I've just spent too much time at the Hospital lately)

09-23-2003, 09:47 PM	#62
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	Chalk up another "I think I've always been a Witch and didn't know it until now" to the 'Net savvy Pagans of the world! __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

09-24-2003, 07:00 PM	#64
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	I recommend reading alot of everything to start out. Then once you find a subject you enjoy more then others, read alot of different authors on the same subject. It's important not to narrow your authors or your initial subject matter. That being said, I enjoy Scott Cunningham. I've also got Witches Bible. It's heavy reading, and definitely something to be read in small chunks, but it's a good basis to start with. I enjoy divination, so I have a general book on different types of that, and then I have The Runic Workbook, several books on I Ching (I Ching in 10 minutes is a great starter) and my favorite, tarot. For the very beginner, get a Rider-Waite Deck with a book, then once you're more comfortable, go to your local magickal dealer and look at their decks. If one feels right, get it. Anyway, I'm tangenting. So yeah. start with general books and then narrow down what you're interested in. You'll have a great library in no time! __________________ Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt

09-24-2003, 07:59 PM	#66
OnyxCougar Junior Master Dwellar Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Kingdom of Atlantia Posts: 2,979	I told him. He pressed his lips together and nodded thanks. And in my previous post, I said "have" when I really meant "had." sigh __________________ Impotentes defendere libertatem non possunt. "Repetition does not transform a lie into a truth." ~Franklin D. Roosevelt

09-24-2003, 08:38 PM	#67
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	Dani: I agree with OC that Cunningham is a good starting point. Although controversial, Silver Ravenwolf is a good Wicca 101 level writer as well. "To Ride a Silver Broomstick" is as good a place as any to begin. The Farrars' "Witches Bible" is an excellent second step. Be aware that, when you read different authors, you are going to get varying points of view about what one would think was the same topic. The Farrars', for instance, are steeped in the genuine, first-level after Gardner and Alexander type of Wicca, and the modern (particularly American) practice of the Craft has really begun to deviate in many substantial ways from the origins of Wicca as a religion. Also - and this is really, really important - ask questions of people who practice. It is good if you can determine that they are not radical flakes first, though. There are just as many loonie Wiccans as they are crazy christians, bonkers buddhists and slap-happy satanists, so watch out for them. If you decide to find a group to work and study with, try and become familiar with the Bonewits evaluatory scale, found at http://www.celticcrow.com/bonew.html . It is a no-nonsense, logical and practical way of evaluating groups to see if they are reasonably down to earth (hey, all of Pagan types are a little flaky and weird) or outright cultists. It is a scary world out there, and scary people who think they are Pagan can be the scariest of them all. Just ask OC, I think she knows better than most of us. Finding a reputable and generous teacher can be the best thing for someone interested in starting down the Wiccan path, but it isn't precisely necessary. There's tons of stuff in print and online, but like everything else, not all of it is necessarily right, or even reasonable, so again, ask questions, use evaluative thought processes...and always, always be safe. Keep us posted! For a very good online general resource regarding Wiccan and other Pagan paths, I recommend www.witchvox.com . __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

09-24-2003, 11:07 PM	#68
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	Although I despise her radical left politics, I really liked Starhawk's The Spiral Dance. It's more intermediate than introductory level, but very good. I also appreciated Cunningham's books, Wicca and Living Wicca provide very good introductions for solitary practitioners, and much of his information is adaptable for coveners. His guides (to herbs, crystals, and pretty much everything else) are indispensible magickal resouce works. Be wary of much else of what Llewellyn publishes though ... in most fields, as Sturgeon's Law tells us, 99% of everything is crap. For Llewellen Publishing that goes up to about 99.7% ... (okay, maybe it's not really THAT bad, but they tend to have a lot of light and fluffy "whitelighter" books.) __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

09-25-2003, 12:42 AM	#69
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	Llewellyn is a victim of its own success, but I do think it is somewhat true that they tend to exclude a less "fluffy" sort of writer. That being said, I have just finished engaging three of their more interesting authors to speak at our 2004 Pagan Fest. Donald Michael Kraig, Russell Buddy Helm and Ann Moura. It is difficult to make a blanket indictment of a single publisher, but Llewellyn has brought a lot more information to the public than was ever available before, but not all of that information is good or even useful. I'm not a huge Llewellyn fan, but I do have to say that, from a festival production standpoint, they have been extremely cooperative, solicitous, helpful and generous (we get free books and stuff from them to review for our organizational newsletter now, too, BTW, so that's a nice bonus). __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

09-28-2003, 10:04 AM	#70
Whit Umm ... yeah. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 949	Hey, I was just railing im the X-mas thread and when Ep posted I wondered what you Wiccan's do for x-mass? I suspect, much like some jewish friends I've had, you celebrate it as a cultural event and leave out the religion. __________________ A friend will help you move. A true friend will help you move a body.

09-28-2003, 07:03 PM	#71
wolf lobber of scimitars Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Phila Burbs Posts: 20,774	We have Yule, which is all the joyous fellowship, the gift giving, the green and red, the holly, the mistletoe, the evergreen tree, the lights, the yule log, the feasting, the ... well pretty much all of the secular stuff is actually pagan. Oh, and the bunnies and the chickies and the chocolate at Easter ... and the name Easter ... that's all pagan too. __________________ wolf eht htiw og "Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis

09-28-2003, 10:21 PM	#72
Whit Umm ... yeah. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 949	Well that's just darn convienient. No one knows what you're really celebrating... Kind of like when I start laughing and no one is sure what caused it. Wait... Maybe that's a bad example... __________________ A friend will help you move. A true friend will help you move a body.

09-29-2003, 09:22 AM	#73
Elspode When Do I Get Virtual Unreality? Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Raytown, Missouri Posts: 12,719	Yule (Winter Solstice) celebrates the rebirth of the Sun King, who dies at Mabon (Autumnal Equinox) , enters the Underworld at Samhain (Halloween), and then is reborn at the Winter Solstice. He's also his own son...pretty cool trick, huh? __________________ "To those of you who are wearing ties, I think my dad would appreciate it if you took them off." - Robert Moog

09-29-2003, 12:08 PM	#74
Whit Umm ... yeah. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 949	Eh, being his own son is also done by the Jesus with the whole trinity thing. Big deal, I know of a family in Oklahoma that makes that seem mundane...       Interesting though, that's the traditional literary description of the "hero's journey." Of course that type of thing is common in many religions. Even Jesus went to hell for a few days.       Of course, if the sun king is connected to things warming up, I like him more.       I was just thinking, this is clearly a case of a christian holiday being transposed. Due to biblical description most people who study the bible don't think Dec. 25 was the date of Jesus' birth it must have just been convenient to change the name of the celebration due to the Pagan holiday.       Damn guys, is Halloween the only holiday celebrated by pagans and non-pagans alike that hasn't been converted to a 'Christian' holiday? __________________ A friend will help you move. A true friend will help you move a body.

09-29-2003, 12:28 PM	#75
Dagney The Prodigal Brat Returneth Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: North Cackalacky Posts: 1,107	Well, if you think of it, Halloween is sometimes called "All Hallow'ds Eve" which comes before All Saint's Day on 11/1. So, even there it's somewhat been absorbed by the Christian belief system. Dagney (and I didn't forget the promise to dig out my notes on Samhain and other holidays for you Whit, I've just spent too much time at the Hospital lately) __________________ The Constitution gives every American the right to make a total fool out of himself. But that doesn't mean you need to.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)