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Philosophy Religions, schools of thought, matters of importance and navel-gazing |
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12-20-2008, 12:24 AM | #31 | |
Constitutional Scholar
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Ocala, FL
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It's part of natural law. It was well-known that things like murder, theft, rape, assault, etc. were wrong thousands of years before the bible was ever thought of. In short, we are born with the right to do anything we want as long as our actions do not physically harm, endanger, or violate the person, property, or rights of another. Our rights are unlimited other than by the rights of others. One might ask, "How do we determine what is or is not a right." Nobody has the right to use force against another person other than in our own defense. Let's say I want to mow my lawn naked. You don't want to see it. You have no right to physically prevent me from doing it or even to make a law against it, but you do have a right not to associate with me, or to ask me to stop, or to picket in front of my house, or put up flyers throughout town telling everyone else to do the same. Eventually, I'd either have to drive to the next town for groceries and friends, or I'd have to move. Your rights don't entitle you to use force to make others act in a way that makes you feel comfortable. Your comfort is trumped by the right of freedom of expression of others. You have a right not to be physically harmed or endangered. So my right to swing my fist ends where your nose begins. A gay person's right to marry any consenting other they choose is more important than the desires of a billion people for them not to marry. You have the right not to marry someone of the same gender or to think that such a union is illegitimate, but you do not have the right to create a law against it. Nor do a billion more of you. Our rights are never up for a vote and do not come from government. This means they can't be taken away by government.
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"I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death." - George Carlin |
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12-20-2008, 02:07 AM | #32 | |||||
Ohio fisherman
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ohio
Posts: 117
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Obviously we can each only judge a matter by what we've been exposed to concerning it.
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..................................................................................................... richlevi, ... all absolutely true. There have been a lot of selfish wretches in christianity as well as outside it that have used christianity to abuse the innocent. Some may have been delusional and acted out of fears rather than faith, but all were horribly wrong. Obviously these people were not following Jesus' teachings, or his disciples in their actions. Jesus' disciples suffered horrendous deaths in the process of teaching others of Jesus' teachings. On the other hand, people following Jesus' teachings have spent their lives serving others across the world, feeding, clothing, making wells, homes, etc. giving of their resources. What other religion can come even close to showing their fellow man the love and care that christians have over the centuries? ..................................................................................................... Pie, you asked excellent questions. Quote:
Then there is on the side of the biblical proofs, the body of facts regarding the prophecies of the Bible and their impossibility of being intentionally fulfilled by men. And yet we are living in a time when looking around us we see more prophecies being fulfilled as we live and breath. (future discussions possibly?) No other religion has been able to compare, the closest are the occult traditions that contact "spirit guides". (whole other discussion) The long answer involves: my posting the various mathematical impossibilities that disprove species abilities to evolve from one another, and develop specific characteristics by chance. (future hopefully) As well as posting other related, detailed specific impossibilities that evolution assumes as true in order to get anywhere. And we really should get into details regarding biblical prophecies, especially with a literal meaning regarding the current world affairs. (amazing stuff!) The long answer also includes my sharing the loving physical miraculous healing that God gave me to give to my little brother back when I was in high school. He was healed of leukemia. This is a part of my personal "experiencial" evidence that I realize is only worth so much to someone else. Experiencial evidence being often unprovable and difficult to understand clearly by the listener. So I prefer to discuss and share the tangible topics. Prophecy does fall into that category for discussion. Especially since this world is just marching along... toward fulfilling the prophecies in very literal, direct fashion. Quote:
What I was meaning is that if one believes that there is no God, all of one's life is spent doing what pleases and makes oneself happy, satisfied, fulfilled rather than offering any action or thought to please God. I was just seeing a difference of focus, ie. living one's life for oneself/ living one's life to please God. Sorry for the confusion. I don't understand "FSM"? Now, there's the ultimate moral authority! ... LOL I'm tired Flint. What is going on in the pic? Thanks. I agree Radar, certainly those concepts existed long before the Bible. That doesn't eliminate God as their source however, since He was in the picture from the beginning. The Bible is just simply the eventual writing down of God's teachings that had been being given to men. The use of traditional marriage by gays is an arguable point, and I disagree. (for a different thread)
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~ Perception is vital, reality is irrelevant... or is it? ~ "People never give each other enough credit for their contributions." ... a truer statement was never made. - contributed by TheMercenary Last edited by Ruminator; 12-20-2008 at 02:23 AM. |
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12-20-2008, 02:26 AM | #33 | |
Snooty Borg
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 81
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The second assumption is that morality must somehow be supernatural in origin. Such a stance basically says "My belief system is the best, so if I am wrong then nobody can be right!" It is from this that you get the most dangerous element of religion; it isn't the certainty that you are correct in your thinking, but that other people must be incorrect because they disagree with you. This is poor logic in action. |
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12-20-2008, 02:50 AM | #34 | |||
Snooty Borg
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 81
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Only through study and practice can you improve your thinking, and this involves providing proper evidence for your conclusions. This is *not* a simple lesson to learn, but it is crucial. Right. I would suggest that someone pleasing themselves is better than someone making an imaginary communal friend and enslaving themselves to it. That is just me though. |
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12-20-2008, 04:53 AM | #35 | |
We have to go back, Kate!
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
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And, much of that good work conducted by Christians over the centuries, has been an act of imperial and religious domination. Missionaries, whilst well-meaning and probably helpful to some communities, gave their help at a heavy cultural price. Christians have caused misery and distress, bloodshed and horror and the cultural and emotional dislocation of whole peoples. Christian thinkers have used their faith to justify slavery and war, political and intellectual repression, gender and racial hierarachies, and from the 18th century onwards, the right and insurmountability of capital. Christians are people. Moslems are people. Both of these faiths have encouraged people to do wonderful and humantitarian acts and both have led to appalling acts of violence (literal and cultural). |
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12-20-2008, 05:28 AM | #36 |
Старый сержант
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: NC, dreaming of large Russian women.
Posts: 1,464
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I stand at what I think is the opposite end of the spectrum from Dana. I've experienced God first hand, my world view cannot be separated from this experience. About free will, the evidence of my life seems to indicate that I can do anything I want, when ever I want. The evidence seems to indicate that I have a free will.
I don't think that my moral and ethical conduct is hinged on my experience with God. I would say that the evidence of my life once again would indicate that the more selfless and less self centered I am, the more fulfilled my life seems to be. This in itself points in an ethical and moral direction of action and thinking. I agree with some of the discussion so far, at the end of the day, God or no God, free will or no free will, we all will do what ever we do. Most or much of what we do will indeed be motivated by self interest, and perceived survival. If self interest and perceived survival are the only motivating factors for our ethical and moral standards, then I think we are indeed missing out on a great deal of what our life here has to offer us and others.
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Birth, wealth, and position are valueless during wartime. Man is only judged by his character --Soldier's Testament. Death, like birth, is a secret of Nature. - Marcus Aurelius. |
12-20-2008, 05:36 AM | #37 | ||||||
We have to go back, Kate!
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My last post was an instant reaction to something that stuck out at me. This is a more considered response to the post as a whole
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But please, if you have something you consider particularly compelling, I'll happily look at it. Quote:
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There is no difference between the 'absolute' statements I have made and this one from yourself: Quote:
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And which teachings of Jesus are you following incidentally? The accepted texts were only finalised hundreds of years after Jesus' death. The Aryans thought they were following the direct teachings of Jesus...and so did those who condemned them as heretics. The monks who oversaw the wholesale slaughter of the Cathars were directly following Jesus' teachings, living as they did an apostolic life. Those who follow Jesus' teachings have also done much good in the world. The equality of all God's children and the special care shown to those suffering in poverty is a wonderful thing, and has underscored many of the most progressive and marvellous movements of human understanding in our long history. But so have many of those who follow Mohammed's teachings, reviling as they do the iniquities of usury, compelling as they do to the care of the poor, insisting as they do on an equality of God's children. Religions (all the major religions) have been used to justify appalling inequalities and wonderful equalities, acts of cruelty and acts of kindness. Because we have made them and they reflect us. Quote:
I think you may be misunderstanding the nature of that selfishness. The selfishness of altruism doesn't necessarily feel selfish. One's conscious focus may well be on pleasing another, or even pleasing God. My own focus is a consciously selfish one some of the time and not so at other times. I dont spend my whole life pursuing what pleases me and makes me happy. I also go out of my way at times for someone elses benefit, at a genetic level (and some might say also a pyschological level) I am pleasing myself when I act with another in mind, but that isn't necessarily how it feels in the moment. If you act with God as your focus, then (in my worldview) you are doing so selfishly: to get closer to God, to earn his approval/a place in heaven/an assuasion of guilt, to feel pious, to feel chosen/special/planned for, to elevate yourself by submitting. To me there is no more value in this than any other reason to dig deep for your fellow man and try to make the world a better place. Last edited by DanaC; 12-20-2008 at 05:59 AM. |
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12-20-2008, 05:48 AM | #38 | |
We have to go back, Kate!
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12-20-2008, 08:27 AM | #39 |
Gone and done
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Rumi, I have liked what you have said in other threads, so in order to preserve what kindness lingers in my heart for you, I will depart this conversation. Really, it's in both our interests.
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per·son \ˈpər-sən\ (noun) - an ephemeral collection of small, irrational decisions The fun thing about evolution (and science in general) is that it happens whether you believe in it or not. |
12-20-2008, 09:56 AM | #40 | ||
King Of Wishful Thinking
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Philadelphia Suburbs
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By this reasoning, no religion or religious organization is ever wrong. This is actually true if one considers that to be the view of the followers. Faith has a dark side, as the people who didn't drink the Kool Aid will tell you. One argument for having no religious institutions is that it would validate the Pope's statement by truly putting responsibility for the relationship with man and G-d with each individual. There would either be no religious wars because no religious or secular leaders could lay claim to any faithful, or there would be a huge melee as individuals 'defended' their unique vision of the divine. FSM = :"Flying Spaghetti Monster" a satirical construct intended to demonstrate the folly of attempting to confuse faith with science. In short, the existence of G-d will always remain unproven by any scientific measure. Therefore, any one view of any deity is equally valid. G-d could be a white haired Caucasian, a woman, or a flying Spaghetti Monster.
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Exercise your rights and remember your obligations - VOTE!I have always believed that hope is that stubborn thing inside us that insists, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that something better awaits us so long as we have the courage to keep reaching, to keep working, to keep fighting. -- Barack Hussein Obama Last edited by richlevy; 12-20-2008 at 10:03 AM. |
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12-20-2008, 11:21 AM | #41 | ||||||
I think this line's mostly filler.
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Neither are evidence.
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_________________ |...............| We live in the nick of times. | Len 17, Wid 3 | |_______________| [pics] |
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12-20-2008, 11:43 AM | #42 | |
Franklin Pierce
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,695
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Humans get ethical values from their environment. So, no, it doesn't matter whether a person is religious or not because their environment is the same and therefore they have the same chance (there are other factors involved) of being equally "moral".
I don't believe in absolute morals and I believe they are all completely made by society and history backs me up. But, Since religion has played a huge part in the creation of sociological values and ethics in our society today, everyone, no matter the religion of lack of thereof, still is greatly affected by religious ethics. Quote:
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I like my perspectives like I like my baseball caps: one size fits all. |
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12-20-2008, 11:44 AM | #43 |
Looking forward to open mic night.
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~What I was meaning is that if one believes that there is no God, all of one's life is spent doing what pleases and makes oneself happy, satisfied, fulfilled rather than offering any action or thought to please God. I was just seeing a difference of focus, ie. living one's life for oneself/ living one's life to please God.
Sorry for the confusion ~ Oh that isn't what God wants? Yea that's fucking confusing. Yes that confuses me. When you meet him ask what he wants, and we'll talk about it. Offering thoughts or actions for something or someone, that I can not validate the existence of, seems a little kooky. Not that I am not a kook and wouldn't try it at least once, but c'mon! Living my life out of an idea rather than something that can be verified, and pulling it together from there, seems a little odd. And the older I get, the more odd I think this is. I am sorry. I think this idea in it's very essence, is insane. Of course I can be a little crazy and have chanted to buddha etc. etc. But I know what I am doing. Being crazy. It's really just me, sending good vibes and energy out there, and unfortunately, that is probably where it ends. Just the facts. I like the facts now and rarely rely on something I deem to be utter bullshit. Everything people did for others came from people, not god. Everything that people did to harm each other came from other people, not god. To say any action or lack thereof pleases god assumes too much, and makes you look like a dork. Do stuff because it's in you to do it. If it were in you to be kind, wouldn't that please god more than a "big show" of your obedience?
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Show me a sane man, and I will cure him for you.- Carl Jung |
12-20-2008, 11:51 AM | #44 |
We have to go back, Kate!
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*grins*
Served! |
12-20-2008, 12:03 PM | #45 |
still says videotape
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cite
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If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis |
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