Bad Santa. No, I mean REALLY Bad.

[monster]

Let's all laugh and point at the misogynist!

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Radar

Women kill their children a lot more than men, but when this happens women try to think of excuses for them. They'll say, "She's depressed" or some other such nonsense. Sometimes a man is leaving a marriage and a woman kills herself and the kids so he can't have them.



Andrea Yates, Nicole Waring, Leatrice Brewer, Susan Smith, Michelle Kehoe, Gilberta Estrada, Viviane Gamor, Veronique Courjault, Jeanmarie Tolle Geis, Banita Jacks, Joanne Hill, Hope Orwick, Frances Elaine Campione, etc... all murdered their children.

Wow.

Or both men and women are capable of doing tremendously fucked up things.

[Undertoad]

Postpartum depression is extremely well-documented Radar. Let's give you that kind of hormonal swing and see if you turn into an asshole.

Oh wait.

[Clodfobble]

[tw]

Originally Posted by Radar

Women kill their children a lot more than men, but when this happens women try to think of excuses for them.

From The Economist of 18 Dec 2008 in "Darwinism Why we are, as we are":

It was not until Dr Daly and Dr Wilson began researching the field that it was discovered that a child under five is many times more likely to die an unnatural death in a household with a stepfather present (whether or not that relationship has been formalised by law) than if only biological parents are there. ...

Intriguingly, though, if a genetic parent is the killer it is often the mother. Infanticidal mothers are usually young. ... Not surprisingly, maternal infanticide is mainly a crime of poor, single women.

[Ruminator]

So true, Dana and pierce are right, as well as UT and tw's thoughts.

[sidenote to UT and tw's posts] - I began a little over a year ago experiencing the uncontrollable emotional mood swings that my usually very loving "better half" started having.
Now this is perimenopausal, and I/we were totally flabbergasted by them. Soul-mates who love each others company, but in these monthly times she experiences horrendous emotions sometimes.
Believe me when I say I was shocked!!
I understand she can't control her feelings that arise and am very proud of her and the effort she puts into controlling her actions and spoken words when they do.

I think she appreciates my understanding as limited as it is. My heart hurts for her and the struggles she goes through and I try to keep from causing her more grief.

And although such situations can be understood, of course this doesn't let off the hook legally any crimes a woman, as well as a man commits in such emotional times.

But I've seen the tough struggles that an extremely loving and giving woman is going through, up close and first-hand. I think I may have said it before- try as I do, I'll never be able to match her giving heart.

[Sundae]

We seem to have different statistics in this country.
Perhaps because of the safety net? Of course it doesn't always work - I am not suggesting that no mothers kill their children in England.

From The Telegraph (I have edited)

By Olga Craig

Dr Ashcroft, himself the father of an eight-week-old son, knows more than most about filicide: he has studied more than 50 British cases. "...harsh fact is that these are not spontaneous acts of madness. These murders are almost always premeditated: often planned in extreme detail."

The headlines may seem to be multiplying, but such murders are not a new phenomenon, Dr Ashcroft says.

Crime statistics show that in the decade from 1992 to 2002, an average of 78 children under 16 were murdered each year in England and Wales. In roughly 70 per cent of cases, the killing was carried out by a parent, almost always the father.

"One major element that almost all have in common is that, hitherto, they have been well-respected and well-known in their communities," says Dr Ashcroft. "Inevitably, one always hears shocked descriptions afterwards of how he was 'a devoted dad' or ‘a loving family man’.

"And that, in itself, is revealing. Because almost all are the sort of men who place enormous value on their role, or perceived role, within a family.

"Probably the most significant factors that come into play are family break-up, male sexual jealousy, a need to be in control and extreme possessiveness."

Often those who kill their children fall into one of two categories, says Professor Kevin Browne, the director of the Centre for Forensic and Family Psychology at the University of Birmingham. A minority suffer from personality disorders —the mentally ill. But there is a majority who have a history of violent and abusive behaviour, the so-called "generally violent".

Both groups often had troubled childhoods making them particularly challenged by feelings of jealousy and fearful of abandonment.

"In other words, if the wife threatens to leave, it can trigger a tremendous reaction in the man, including wanting to kill his wife and his children," Professor Browne says.

Psychologists agree that the majority of women who kill their children are seriously mentally ill, but fathers who do so rarely are.

"Men and women go through life experiencing distressing circumstances such as relationship breakdowns or financial problems, and they develop strategies to deal with them," says Dr Alex Yellowlees, a consultant psychiatrist and medical director of the Priory Hospital in Glasgow. "Women tend to talk to their friends, go out and drink too much or maybe chop off the sleeves of their husbands' suits.

"Others, in particular these fathers, have not developed those coping skills. They have low self-esteem, they are very controlling and less able to handle rejection. They can't talk about it: it is as if they have failed, and they cannot accept that. They feel utterly humiliated and respond with the ultimate act of revenge: ‘If I cannot have the children, no one can.’ They know their partner will suffer for the rest of her life if he kills the children and leaves her alive."

But one psychologist, an expert witness in one such murder trial... "Make no mistake," he says, "these men know the difference between right and wrong. And these are well-planned executions. A few may be insane, but generally that is simply not the case.

"They may be depressed or frustrated with life. They may have lost a relationship or a job that meant a lot to them. But they are not hearing voices, they are not suffering from a profound mental disorder. Annihilating his family is this type of murderer's way of regaining control. It is a methodical murder by a rational, loving father. And that is why it is so terrifying."

[DanaC]

Wow. Thanks for that Sundae. That was really interesting.

From the same article:

In America, where there are 10 such crimes each month on average, detailed studies have led Professor Jack Levin, of Boston University, a world expert on what is known in the US as "family annihilation" to believe that there are two categories of child murder. One is the "altruistic" murder, committed out of misplaced love, and the other is the "revenge" murder committed in anger.

In the so-called "altruistic" murder, the father decides life is not worth living and doesn't want to leave the children or his wife behind. He wants to take his own life, but as the breadwinner and the person responsible, in his own mind, for the welfare of his children, he decides he will spare them the suffering of growing up without a father and the shame of being the offspring of a suicide.

Far more common, however, is the revenge killing logically carried out by the father who blames his spouse for all his problems, a reaction commonly triggered by separation or divorce.
"The man feels his wife is deserting him so he wants to eliminate everything she loves. That includes the children," Professor Levin explains.

Given the importance these men place on family and their role as provider and possessor, it does make me wonder how much of this is biological (leading to this particular resopnse to jealousy) and how much is cultural (gender identities that exclude some men from the coping strategiesother men and most women have access to.)

[Clodfobble]

Women tend to talk to their friends, go out and drink too much or maybe chop off the sleeves of their husbands' suits.

I know it's a serious topic, but this made me snicker out loud. I guess sleeve-chopping is a typical British woman's display of anger?

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by Clodfobble

I know it's a serious topic, but this made me snicker out loud. I guess sleeve-chopping is a typical British woman's display of anger?

It's one of the ones you hear about - that and the paint thrown over the car/ precious records sold on eBay etc.

Despite the facts and medical opinions cited in the article, it's still only the work of a journalist after all.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by monster

Let's all laugh and point at the misogynist!

I'd like to laugh and point at the misogynist, but nobody in this thread, including me, has made a misogynistic statement. What I said is no more misogynistic than the statement Dana made was misandristic.

Postpartum depression may be real, but blaming depression on murdering your kids is as ridiculous as a man saying he killed his kids because he was horny and his hormones were off or a woman using the excuse that PMS made her murder her husband.

Sundae's stats don't prove anything. Stats vary widely from one country to another.

TW's quote from the economists seems to support what I've said. The presence of a step-father increases the odds of an "unnatural death", but this could be suicide, drunk driving, doing drugs with other kids, etc. It does nothing to suggest that the step father is killing the kids.

The second sentence of his quote says that murder of children is often by the mother which leans towards supporting what I've said about seeing more stories in the news about women murdering their own kids than men doing so. Step-fathers don't count.

[Radar]

Here's an article that says women are more likely to kill their kids, but when men do murder their kids, they also include the wife.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=3435710&page=1

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by Radar

Sundae's stats don't prove anything. Stats vary widely from one country to another.

True.
Figures for the US please.

The second sentence of his quote says that murder of children is often by the mother which leans towards supporting what I've said about seeing more stories in the news about women murdering their own kids than men doing so. Step-fathers don't count.

Actually you said:

Women kill their children a lot more than men, but when this happens women try to think of excuses for them.

Not the same thing at all.

[Sundae]

Originally Posted by Radar

Here's an article that says women are more likely to kill their kids, but when men do murder their kids, they also include the wife.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/Story?id=3435710&page=1

Sadly, the article does not include any figures.
I am willing to accept that more mothers murder their own children in the US than fathers do, as all I was trying to do was back up Dana's British opinion. But if you are going to include facts I'd prefer it if they show actual statistics. We all know journalists are headline seeking.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

True.
Figures for the US please.

I wouldn't know where to get such data.

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Actually you said:
Not the same thing at all.

The main point of my statement saying that women kill their kids more, is to point out the hypocrisy that when Andrea Yates (a woman who should be slowly lowered into a wood chipper an inch at a time) murdered her 5 kids, insane American women were blaming her husband and whining about postpartum depression when if a man committed the same crime, they'd be demanding that he get strung up by his balls.

There is no bond greater than that between children and their mother. This is why there is no betrayal more great than when a mother murders her kids and why I find it even more offensive than when a man does it. And trust me, when a man does it, I want him to suffer horrific pain for every single day remaining of his life and hope that he gets the death penalty in some extremely painful way after being gang raped repeatedly by big dudes with AIDS.