What is the ethical thing to do?

[chrisinhouston]

Ok, here is my dilemma:

I borrowed my step son's 2008 Ford Edge on Wednesday. I had to take my mother in law (his maternal grandmother) to a couple of doctor's appointments and my wife needed her car to get to a client for some meetings and mom can't physically get into my car. I am the usual one taking her to appointments as I work from home and am available.

The Ford Edge is their older family car and sits in the driveway most days because my step son and his wife both have a newer car and either drive separately to work or car pool. But sometimes my step son uses it, mostly if his new 2015 Corvette is in the shop (seems like quite often with software glitches) or he just doesn't want to put the miles on it. Daughter in law only drives her new Ford Explorer. I've borrowed the Edge in the past when my car was needing a repair, if I had to take mom places or if I was taking their 5 kids somewhere since they won't legally fit in my car of my wife's.

So on Friday I gassed it up with a full tank and vacummed it out so I would return it in better shape then I when I got it. Wife and I planned to return it on Saturday morning. On the way home from the gas station to my house on Friday at 4pm I suddenly notice the temperature is rising fast on the gauge so I pull into a grocery store parking lot and check under the hood only to find virtually no water in the sealed reservoir bottle for the radiator. I quickly purchased 3 gallons of water and proceeded to pout it in and fill it up. And then I noticed the water was dripping out under the car. I figured some hose out of sight had failed.

I called my step son but got no answer so left a message and also texted him. Then I left a message for my daughter in law. Got a call back from her later with a "So what have you done to our car?" question. I explained I thought a hose had given out and she said her husband had had the car completely serviced in November by Ford. So I asked her to ask him what he wanted me to do? Should I tow it to Ford or a local shop? Did he have towing insurance coverage? She said she would get back to me. I called my wife who left work and came and got me. We sat in the parking lot waiting for an hour and finally went home as we had no reply.

I tried calling her after an hour and got her voice mail and tried again at the 2 hour mark. She replied that he didn't want to talk to me or deal with it as he had to take a final for an online class towards his degree. "Ok" I said, "I'll leave it at the store for the night and have it towed to a repair shop in the morning and not to the dealer since they charge so much more."

Next morning I follow it on the tow truck to the shop and leave it and they call back at 2PM and say it is the water pump seal and that they don't do that repair as it is pretty major on an Edge and that it would need to go to the dealer. They indicated the labor alone is $1000!

At this point I still had not heard from my step son so I called him. He was cordial enough and I asked if he had towing coverage as it had to be taken to the dealer. He said he would check and called me back saying he did. I said I would take care of the bill at the local shop and the towing. I kind of felt responsible as I had decided to take it there. The bill was only $125 (70 for towing, the rest was diagnostic). He asked if I could follow the tow to the dealer, he had called them to advise it was coming but both he and his wife were doing other things with kids so couldn't take care of it. I agreed.

Later that evening, my wife said she had spoken with her son and he was really mad at me for damaging his car and expected me to pay for the repairs. I was speechless. The water pump failed on a car with 100 thousand miles and is 7 years old in Houston where summertime is really hot. Nonetheless he felt I was responsible as I was at the wheel.

So I texted him and suggested we get together today to talk about what would be fair. He sent back an angry text saying I was always borrowing his car and putting miles on it and he was tired of it. Funny but he never indicated that in the past. Now, keep in mind that I unselfishly give up countless hours helping both of them out with kids who are home sick from school or doing minor and major repairs around their home. Last fall I even did a major electrical job for their new double oven in their kitchen and installed it perfectly into the existing cabinet. Well, that didn't seem to carry any weight, he insisted I was responsible. So I went on line to my financial site for my few investments and initiated a transfer of $2000 since I have no idea what it will end up costing.

Sorry this is so long. I just don't feel ethically bound to pay for the entire repair, I would agree to pay half or help out but I fail to see how a wear and tear part on an older car failing is my fault. Funny but my step son had used the car earlier this week to go to the city for jury duty. Wish it had broken on him! I would feel the opposite and responsible if I had caused damage like in an accident. I even feel glad it was me in a small way because I regularly monitor my dashboard and saw the overheating happening. I doubt he or his wife would have.

I guess my further dilemma is that I have had a rough relationship with him over the years. His mother was widdowed and he never fully liked our getting married 16 years ago but I thought we had moved beyond that. We have had a few big arguments on issues over the years but always have been able to forgive and forget. But now I am having this sense that while I will pay for the car if that will make him happy I really won't do him any favors in the future. I feel bad because in the end it might make relations worse. I fell like the next time they ask me to get the grand kids or watch them I would just say I am already committed elsewhere. I'd like to suggest he or his wife take time off from work to get his grandmother to her next doctor's appointment. Need a repair at home or my advice? Sorry buddy... Is that being petty? Maybe, but I feel really taken advantage of and not treated fairly.

[DanaC]

Totally understand why you feel like pulling right back on any future help.

[Clodfobble]

I agree. I would say that all interactions for the foreseeable future should be done through your wife, since he is her son after all. The next time Grandma needs to go to the doctor, your wife needs to call her son and ask which of them wants to do it. It's not cool for them to have never mentioned their grievances until now, and I suspect their opinion will change when they are forced to see how much work you've been doing that they've been taking for granted.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Yeah, fuck 'em. bearing in mind it may limit grandchild contact.

[chrisinhouston]

Yes, I will let my wife handle interactions for the foreseeable future. This kind of thing frustrates her as she often says how much this son is like his deceased father who apparently could be a real dick sometimes. She just shook her head yesterday and said we will figure out how to cover it. Frustrating because while we get by financially we barely do each month and my step son and his wife bring in close to $200,000 per year, have new cars and a new home and every kind of tech gadget out there. I'm pretty sure if his mother had borrowed the car it wouldn't have been such an issue but I think his feelings towards me lie buried

One thing I find kind of amusing is that my step son can be especially tough on his older 2 teenagers (14 year old son and 13 year old step daughter). He has no patience for them being moody or emotional or avoiding an issue that needs attention. I wanted so badly last night to ask him why he was being rather childish in not returning my call or communicating his feelings on the issue for over 24 hours. If he had at least spoken to me the first towing probably would have been covered as well as the second.

[Lamplighter]

Ummm.... I wonder if a different title should be:
What is the mature thing to do ?

As I read the OP, I hear an older generation missing a cliche...
If you borrow something, you're responsible for it.
If you don't like that responsibility, don't borrow.

The younger seems to be saying the same thing, but from their POV
If someone doesn't want to fix my stuff, then they don't get to borrow it.

Also, among family members there may also be a financial POV...
Here, can the younger afford this repair bill as much as the elder ?
The usual family situation would be, No, they can't.

[chrisinhouston]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

Ummm.... I wonder if a different title should be:
What is the mature thing to do ?

As I read the OP, I hear an older generation missing a cliche...
If you borrow something, you're responsible for it.
If you don't like that responsibility, don't borrow.

The younger seems to be saying the same thing, but from their POV
If someone doesn't want to fix my stuff, then they don't get to borrow it.

Also, among family members there may also be a financial POV...
Here, can the younger afford this repair bill as much as the elder ?
The usual family situation would be, No, they can't.

I don't quite agree and can't rely on cliches. As I said I would have no problem covering any repair that I caused to happen. I can hardly be found at fault for the failure of a seal on a water pump.

My main vehicle is a Land Rover which is a glitchy problem prone vehicle. Yet I would not expect anyone to pay for an internal engine part breaking if I loaned it to them because it is a wear and tear item. Hell, my car often breaks down even when I do treat it with care and do proactive maintenance! If I loaned out a car with bad tires and the tire blew causing the borrower harm one could argue that I am at fault for loaning out a car with bad tires. Yet a water pump is hardly a part you replace on a proactive basis. In my opinion no one is at fault. I think I would have felt better if my step son had approached it that way and suggested we split the repair cost.

As I mentioned, my step son and his wife make about double per year then my wife and I and while they have a large family are pretty flushed with cash. Paying over $1000 for them is not as big a hit as for me at this stage of my life and having to reduce my few investments.

I just don't see his response that I somehow caused this to be mature at all. Because I am mature I plan to pay for the repair. But is that the ethical thing to do? My title remains the same.

[sexobon]

Originally Posted by chrisinhouston

... But is that the ethical thing to do? ...

Yes.

You're responsible for returning the vehicle in the same working condition it was in when you borrowed it. Your fault, their fault, no one's fault, in the absence of a specific loan agreement you're responsible. They've probably already put a lot of money into the vehicle maintaining it for their own use from which you benefitted. That should come at no additional cost to them in terms of money or convenience.

If the mileage you put on their car was the straw that broke the camel's back; but, the water pump failed the very next time one of them drove the car, you wouldn't be offering to pay for it ... not even half.

There was no quid pro quo regarding watching their children as you do that as much for the benefit of your relationship with the children as for the parents. Any work you did for the adults was pro bono as was them loaning you the car. They haven't been charging you a rental fee have they? It's a wash.

Considering the disparity between your incomes, it would have been magnanimous of them to pay for repairs even if it was just half. Perhaps they like you, but not that much.

If you're going to borrow cars, get your own towing insurance or join an auto club. They cover you in rental and borrowed vehicles. Trying to put any towing expense on the vehicle owners was low class. It added insult to injury.

Filling the tank and cleaning the vehicle was a nice gesture. Considering your relationship with them, the money would have been better spent being put towards a rental car. It may make the difference between being frugal and being cheap. The latter can come back to bite you in the wallet.

[classicman]

Shit happens. When it happens when you are at the helm, its on you.

[DanaC]

For a handtool - sure - it's in my possession and it breaks that's on me. I borrow your car and a long-term wear and tear problem becomes apparent whilst i am using it? No - that belongs to the car owner. I bump it, that's on me. A part of the car wears through because it reached the end of that part's life - not my fault.



[eta]not that you should have lent me your car in the first place, you crazy fucker, I haven't got a licence. Wtf is wrong with you??

[lumberjim]

WOW, WHAT A COCKSUCKER

[Beest]

what dana said.

WHAT JIM SAID

[xoxoxoBruce]

Don't buy Fords with million dollar water pumps.

[footfootfoot]

When I break something I borrow I fix it or replace it. When I break it. Active voice. When it breaks because it has reached the end of its service life I typically feel responsible for the reasons Grav, Classic, and Sexobon have mentioned and offer to pay for it. That said, I would expect the lender to recognize the difference between failure of a part caused by 4-wheeling while towing a bulldozer with a 2 ton passenger car, and the failure of a seal due to old age, (tangent- WTF? $1000 for a seal? Weren't water pumps, back in the day, a $75 replacement job? I remember many times people saying thank god it was just the water pump. /tangent) acknowledge that and let me off the hook. If I may draw an analogy; if you had asked an elderly friend or neighbor to come over to your house and help catalog your stamp collection and they passed away from just being really fucking old would that put you on the hook for murder or manslaughter? Of course not. Maybe if you forced them somehow to hand dig a new septic tank in 110 degree heat, under the lash, and they died...

The real issue, unfortunately, is that your step daughter-in-law sounds like a super beeee-otch

"So what have you done to our car?"

(seriously, what a cuntish attitude AND plain-old rude and disrespectful. Who talks to people that way?) and your stepson sounds like he's about 14-15 years old and unable to see things in a larger context. When this sort of shit happens to me I try to look at it as tuition for a class on how to avoid future problems with this a'hole again. Although a lot of money up front, it's a small cost in the long run.

I am reminded of that glurgy bit about the little boy who gave his mother a bill for the chores he had done around the house, she paid the bill and gave him one of her own listing all the things the ideal fairy-tale mother does for her son and under the column for charges she put n/c. In this case though I'd be tempted to put down the dollar value of my time, but that would be just as childish as him so, no.

Finally, perhaps what is underlying all of this, even more so than the money, is the disappointment you must feel in your step son and daughter-in-law. It is sad to see family members behaving this way.

[Lamplighter]

...(tangent- WTF? $1000 for a seal? Weren't water pumps, back in the day,
a $75 replacement job? I remember many times people saying thank god
it was just the water pump. /tangent)...

According to Repair Pal, the average cost of this repair is between $772 - $974.
But that may add additional replacements of parts such as timing belt,
thermostat, cooling systems, etc.

Timing belts seem to generate very high replacement costs.

How many times have I've thought the engineers who design a product
should have to use it and to repair it ... all by themselves.

One of my worst experiences was trying to change a flat tire on a travel trailer,
where the (provided) jack would not lift the trailer high enough
to get the wheel out of the wheel-well.