It's not natural - Page 2

Whit · 09-03-2003, 11:55 PM

      So, where does that leave us? Spiraling towards being wiped out by a disease or superior being that will eventually replace us? Kinda neat idea actually.

xoxoxoBruce · 09-04-2003, 09:53 PM

Quote:

So, where does that leave us?

Trying to make sure I don't die horny. Wait...that was another thread. Oh well, it's still true.

Torrere · 09-08-2003, 03:04 PM

I would see "natural" as being the circumstances that we were made (evolved, created) to live in and the things that we were made (evolved, created) to do.

The way that we live is tremendously different from the way that we lived even eight thousand years ago. There are probably twenty or thirty people living in the same appartement building that I do (I'm not sure if the bottom level is actually a floor of appartements). During most of human (pre)history, this number of people would have lived in a much, much larger space.

A hundred years ago, there were no monitors. I've been on the computer for three hours (agh!). This would have never happened even a hundred years ago. Hell, most humans have spent the majority of their time looking for food. Through most of my life, the majority of my time has probably been spent reading. Is that natural?
Nah.

Traditionally, people spent the majority of their time living in small groups. Most of the human diseases act slowly, spread slowly, and leave the victim a long time to live (malaria). The majority of the diseases we worry about today (eg, influenza) spread quickly and act quickly -- they aren't native to humanity, they're native to herd animals whose ways and lifestyles and vulnerabilities we're adopting (fowl, pigs, cows, chickens). We have resistance to natively-human diseases (sickle cells), much more so than to the diseases we didn't grow up with.

As I've heard it, Whit, HIV/AIDS is derived from primates. I've read that AIDS may have been recorded in human populations 80 years ago that were in close contact with chimpanzees. Some primates can contract the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus.

Whit · 09-08-2003, 05:50 PM

      Actually Torr, as I understand it the virus had to mutate a fair amount to make the jump to humans. Their is some question as to the whys and hows of it. As far as 80 years ago goes, can you back this? As fast as this disease spreads I'm having trouble buying that. If it came out that far back then I would have expected an epidemic more than 40 years ago. Didn't happen. Damn, if it would have come out back then, in the 'Roaring 20's'.... Oh my...

xoxoxoBruce · 09-08-2003, 08:04 PM

I remember reading an article back when AIDS was just a "fag" disease.
The author was trying to make a case for the virus jumping to humans during an experiment (British, I think) in Africa back in the 20's or 30's. The primate's they took blood from were immune to malaria, so they tried to pass that immunity on to a group of people by injecting them with this primate blood.
The test was unsuccessful but it was supposed to be in the same general area the AIDS first appeared.
This article was in a mainstream magazine or maybe even a newspaper because I remember at the time I thought it wasn't a publication I'd take very seriously without collaboration.

xoxoxoBruce · 09-08-2003, 08:17 PM

I've been doing some Googleing (Googling?) on Mr Kac.
I'm getting the impression that I have misjudged him and his intentions.

I think warch had correctly judged (and stated) his agenda in stageing this tour/performance.
I'm still having a hard time with glowing green bunnies and dogs, though.:p

Torrere · 09-09-2003, 05:34 PM

Um, crap. The link to the article I was referring to is on a hard drive I don't have anymore. Anyway, I think it was from a diary of a nurse in Africa who noted AIDS-like symptoms in a patient. I remember that I had made the search after reading from Guns, Germs, and Steel, but I can't remember the query anymore.

The earliest confirmed case comes from the Congo in 1959, the earliest reported case is from 1978, and the earliest confirmed case in America comes from 1968 [stupid article].

The best evidence I could find for pre-1959 cases comes from here, here, and here.

Exhaustive, oddball google searches can be really fun. I've found texts blaming the demonization of the penis on St. Augustine, and texts that say that the theory that AIDS originated from Africa is racist. I've found conspiracy theories suggesting that the CIA created AIDS, and that aliens created AIDS. I've found nearly equal numbers of sites saying that AIDS was spread by a polio vaccine, and claiming that the polio theory is dead.

xoxoxoBruce · 09-09-2003, 06:11 PM

It seems to me that since people don't die from AIDS, but other diseases that AIDS prevents the body from combating, it could have been killing people for years. Where medicine is primarily clinics and shamans, AIDS could have easily been overlooked and the deaths blamed on the disease that actually made the person succumb.

09-03-2003, 11:55 PM	#16
Whit Umm ... yeah. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 949	So, where does that leave us? Spiraling towards being wiped out by a disease or superior being that will eventually replace us? Kinda neat idea actually. __________________ A friend will help you move. A true friend will help you move a body.

09-08-2003, 05:50 PM	#19
Whit Umm ... yeah. Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: Arkansas, USA Posts: 949	Actually Torr, as I understand it the virus had to mutate a fair amount to make the jump to humans. Their is some question as to the whys and hows of it. As far as 80 years ago goes, can you back this? As fast as this disease spreads I'm having trouble buying that. If it came out that far back then I would have expected an epidemic more than 40 years ago. Didn't happen. Damn, if it would have come out back then, in the 'Roaring 20's'.... Oh my... __________________ A friend will help you move. A true friend will help you move a body.

09-08-2003, 08:04 PM	#20
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	I remember reading an article back when AIDS was just a "fag" disease. The author was trying to make a case for the virus jumping to humans during an experiment (British, I think) in Africa back in the 20's or 30's. The primate's they took blood from were immune to malaria, so they tried to pass that immunity on to a group of people by injecting them with this primate blood. The test was unsuccessful but it was supposed to be in the same general area the AIDS first appeared. This article was in a mainstream magazine or maybe even a newspaper because I remember at the time I thought it wasn't a publication I'd take very seriously without collaboration. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

09-08-2003, 08:17 PM	#21
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	I've been doing some Googleing (Googling?) on Mr Kac. I'm getting the impression that I have misjudged him and his intentions. I think warch had correctly judged (and stated) his agenda in stageing this tour/performance. I'm still having a hard time with glowing green bunnies and dogs, though.:p __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

09-09-2003, 06:11 PM	#23
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	It seems to me that since people don't die from AIDS, but other diseases that AIDS prevents the body from combating, it could have been killing people for years. Where medicine is primarily clinics and shamans, AIDS could have easily been overlooked and the deaths blamed on the disease that actually made the person succumb. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

09-08-2003, 03:04 PM	#18
Torrere a real smartass Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Kirkland, WA Posts: 1,121	I would see "natural" as being the circumstances that we were made (evolved, created) to live in and the things that we were made (evolved, created) to do. The way that we live is tremendously different from the way that we lived even eight thousand years ago. There are probably twenty or thirty people living in the same appartement building that I do (I'm not sure if the bottom level is actually a floor of appartements). During most of human (pre)history, this number of people would have lived in a much, much larger space. A hundred years ago, there were no monitors. I've been on the computer for three hours (agh!). This would have never happened even a hundred years ago. Hell, most humans have spent the majority of their time looking for food. Through most of my life, the majority of my time has probably been spent reading. Is that natural? Nah. Traditionally, people spent the majority of their time living in small groups. Most of the human diseases act slowly, spread slowly, and leave the victim a long time to live (malaria). The majority of the diseases we worry about today (eg, influenza) spread quickly and act quickly -- they aren't native to humanity, they're native to herd animals whose ways and lifestyles and vulnerabilities we're adopting (fowl, pigs, cows, chickens). We have resistance to natively-human diseases (sickle cells), much more so than to the diseases we didn't grow up with. As I've heard it, Whit, HIV/AIDS is derived from primates. I've read that AIDS may have been recorded in human populations 80 years ago that were in close contact with chimpanzees. Some primates can contract the Simian Immunodeficiency Virus.

09-09-2003, 05:34 PM	#22
Torrere a real smartass Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Kirkland, WA Posts: 1,121	Um, crap. The link to the article I was referring to is on a hard drive I don't have anymore. Anyway, I think it was from a diary of a nurse in Africa who noted AIDS-like symptoms in a patient. I remember that I had made the search after reading from Guns, Germs, and Steel, but I can't remember the query anymore. The earliest confirmed case comes from the Congo in 1959, the earliest reported case is from 1978, and the earliest confirmed case in America comes from 1968 [stupid article]. The best evidence I could find for pre-1959 cases comes from here, here, and here. Exhaustive, oddball google searches can be really fun. I've found texts blaming the demonization of the penis on St. Augustine, and texts that say that the theory that AIDS originated from Africa is racist. I've found conspiracy theories suggesting that the CIA created AIDS, and that aliens created AIDS. I've found nearly equal numbers of sites saying that AIDS was spread by a polio vaccine, and claiming that the polio theory is dead.

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