America's thinking

piercehawkeye45 · 01-02-2007, 08:56 PM

This is a rant and I didn't really know where to put it so I am leaving it here since it pertains to politics. I am sorry for the length but I needed to get this off my chest.

On 9/11/01 Al Queida attacked America by hijacking planes to destroy the Twin Towers, Pentagon, and supposedly the White House. Now, this type of attack must have taken years to plan, requiring money, men, and extreme determination to pull off. This wasn't a type of attack to say "back off" but to show their extreme anger, frustration, and hatred not towards American politicians, but American society, America as a whole. I can't imagine what it took to get a group of people to do this sort of thing, not because I don't think America did anything wrong, but how to plan an event years in advance to show their revenge and hatred for us, feelings that tend to wear off after a few weeks.

Now, after we got attacked, America as a whole announced how it was going to hunt down and kill these terrorists. We fought fire with fire; we showed the world we meant business. We traveled the world, invading countries to get rid of this threat, to promote freedom, to spread democracy. After a few months we realized how hard this campaign was going to be, that not everyone was on the "knight with shining armor's" side. We then placed all resistance in a group of evil, with bias how they hate the "free world" and want to kill all westerners.

Looking back I see how we forgot to pick up their message, the message they gave us in the same form that we gave them months later. Instead of asking ourselves what we did wrong, we quickly proclaimed that these people are impossible to negotiate with, they want nothing except for us to die. Not realizing how we are, how they must think the exact same way as us but on the other side. Instead of looking at our mistakes and seeing how we can fix them, we attacked theirs, told them they were wrong, and conform to us or else. All without realizing that America is the one who is destroying others who will not conform, who are ones who hate everyone that reject our policy, who are too stupid to realize that our violence won't change their way of life. If a guy came into my house and threatened to kill my family I would want to sit down with him and see what led him to do this, so I change, not just kill him and become paranoid of others who might do the same.

I am seeing America's downfall before my eyes. America is like a building that wants to keep on getting bigger and bigger without looking at it's base. Anyone that has ever built a toy building knows that you need to strengthen and expand the bottom every once in a while before growing to prevent the building from toppling over from underneath. We are now past the time where we need to look down at our base and expand there and not at our egos. We need to accept that others hate us, our way of living, and everything we stand for. We need to find out our faults and see if we can change them, not have everyone else change for us.

A few minutes I got a wake-up call, which led me to create this rant. The words "I don't care" stuck me like a bullet through my spine. How we didn't care the reasons for other's actions, but only see the action itself, while, in the same breath, tell others that they need to change.

I think it is time for America to step back and look at ourselves in the mirror. We are growing out of control and are doing nothing to stop it, to control it, to help the growth of others. This is one of the first times I can truly say I am ashamed of being American, ashamed of our thinking, ashamed of all our brainwashing and social training. We are looking at a downward spiral with no cure, except for the ability to open our eyes. Yes, we may have to make some sacrifices but it will be for the best in the end.

Maybe in twenty or fifty years we can look at ourselves without denial, in the eyes of not just our friends, but our enemies. "We have already lost, if we do not learn from our mistakes. We have already lost, if we do not learn to change."*

*Quote from band As I Lay Dying

Ibby · 01-03-2007, 02:12 AM

Yes, and? The US is stupid. It always has been, because PEOPLE are stupid, especially in groups. This is nothing new. EVERYONE needs to 'look at themselves in the mirror'.

Oh, and you lose big points for the AILD quote, too.

piercehawkeye45 · 01-03-2007, 10:17 AM

Obviously everyone has their own problems, but America seems the main country that is in the most denial and most unwilling to think it did anything wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibram

Oh, and you lose big points for the AILD quote, too.

You have something against them?

Undertoad · 01-03-2007, 10:30 AM

Can't find anyone second-guessing Iraq? Maybe you missed all political content on all channels for the last 18 months, and an election in which there was a vast change in power, for which Iraq policy was typically listed as the #1 reason.

piercehawkeye45 · 01-03-2007, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Can't find anyone second-guessing Iraq? Maybe you missed all political content on all channels for the last 18 months, and an election in which there was a vast change in power, for which Iraq policy was typically listed as the #1 reason.

Yes, I am aware of those and the protests before the war even started.

If you want to get Iraq on our side you have appeal to their people, which complete military takeover doesn't accomplish. Yet, that has nothing to do with the fact that Americans don't think their morals are wrong by any means. You also have to ask why are we opposed to the war?

tw · 01-03-2007, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Can't find anyone second-guessing Iraq? Maybe you missed all political content on all channels for the last 18 months, and an election in which there was a vast change in power, for which Iraq policy was typically listed as the #1 reason.

Actually, corruption was listed as the #1 reason. Too many Americans still believe America is doing right in Iraq.

tw · 01-03-2007, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

...but to show their extreme anger, frustration, and hatred ... to show their revenge and hatred for us ...
America...was going to hunt down and kill these terrorists. We...invading countries ... a group of evil ....

... their message .... these people are impossible to negotiate with ... they want nothing except ... how they must think the exact same way as us ... our mistakes ... they were wrong, ... who are ones who hate everyone that reject our policy, ...

This reminds me of dreams where I don't realize I am naked until I am outside. Where no matter what I do, I cannot run. Where everything is stripped down to simplistic and therefore unsolvable problems.

Who are these 'we's and 'they's who are somehow monolithic? When we talk about bin Laden, are we also talking about Saddam and Iraq? That is what was posted - just like that bad dream where nothing makes sense.

The post is way too simplistic. It dumps too many fruits and vegetables in one pot - and then calls it beef stew. I can appreciate the frustration. I can appreciate the fear of a nation that has somehow gone bizarre - is destroying itself by attacking the things that made America strong in the name of blind patriotism and 'enemies hiding under every bed'. But to not be specific only creates a muddy flood of conclusions and calls the result 'cleaner'.

There are simple questions with answer that are appalling. Such as, "When do we go after bin Laden?" Somehow this post lumps bin Laden with Egyptian political opposition groups to create 'they' and 'we'.

yesman065 · 01-03-2007, 12:22 PM

Originally Posted by Undertoad: Can't find anyone second-guessing Iraq? Maybe you missed all political content on all channels for the last 18 months, and an election in which there was a vast change in power, for which Iraq policy was typically listed as the #1 reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tw

Actually, corruption was listed as the #1 reason. Too many Americans still believe America is doing right in Iraq.

Iraq policy=corruption. Isn't that what UT meant?

piercehawkeye45 · 01-03-2007, 12:26 PM

Basically what I think we should have done after 9/11 is...
Send a message to Al Queida for justification and the reasons behind the attack. Not because we don't know but for publicity. Then if they don't give a justified claim (they won't) then we can attack. If they give any sort of information on why they attacked, we tell the American people why and at least let them know why they attacked instead of just calling them the filth of the world and keep allowing the American people to think they are perfect.

yesman065 · 01-03-2007, 12:28 PM

Why do you think they attacked us? Does it really matter?

piercehawkeye45 · 01-03-2007, 12:34 PM

I don't know exactly why they attacked us, that is the point. We don't make an attempt to find out why, even if there is no justification behind it. I'm not saying we should have mercy on them, but that we should at least know their point of view.

glatt · 01-03-2007, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I don't know exactly why they attacked us, that is the point. We don't make an attempt to find out why, even if there is no justification behind it. I'm not saying we should have mercy on them, but that we should at least know their point of view.

They told us that they attacked us because our troops were stationed on their holy land (Saudi Arabia.)

piercehawkeye45 · 01-03-2007, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glatt

They told us that they attacked us because our troops were stationed on their holy land (Saudi Arabia.)

That isn't the only reason they attacked us. There has to be something more to plan an attack like 9/11 then just stationed troops. There is a difference from attacking a border country for that (Irael and Lebanon) and across the world.

yesman065 · 01-03-2007, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

That isn't the only reason they attacked us. There has to be something more to plan an attack like 9/11 then just stationed troops. There is a difference from attacking a border country for that (Irael and Lebanon) and across the world.

We, Americans, are the devil. Thats why - didn't you get the memo?

glatt · 01-03-2007, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

We don't make an attempt to find out why, even if there is no justification behind it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

That isn't the only reason they attacked us. There has to be something more...

I didn't say it was a good reason. I said it was the reason they gave us. I'd say it amounts to no justification, but as an American, I have a bias.

01-03-2007, 02:12 AM	#2
Ibby erika Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: "the high up north" Posts: 6,127	Yes, and? The US is stupid. It always has been, because PEOPLE are stupid, especially in groups. This is nothing new. EVERYONE needs to 'look at themselves in the mirror'. Oh, and you lose big points for the AILD quote, too. __________________ not really back, you didn't see me, i was never here shhhhhh

01-02-2007, 08:56 PM	#1
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	America's thinking This is a rant and I didn't really know where to put it so I am leaving it here since it pertains to politics. I am sorry for the length but I needed to get this off my chest. On 9/11/01 Al Queida attacked America by hijacking planes to destroy the Twin Towers, Pentagon, and supposedly the White House. Now, this type of attack must have taken years to plan, requiring money, men, and extreme determination to pull off. This wasn't a type of attack to say "back off" but to show their extreme anger, frustration, and hatred not towards American politicians, but American society, America as a whole. I can't imagine what it took to get a group of people to do this sort of thing, not because I don't think America did anything wrong, but how to plan an event years in advance to show their revenge and hatred for us, feelings that tend to wear off after a few weeks. Now, after we got attacked, America as a whole announced how it was going to hunt down and kill these terrorists. We fought fire with fire; we showed the world we meant business. We traveled the world, invading countries to get rid of this threat, to promote freedom, to spread democracy. After a few months we realized how hard this campaign was going to be, that not everyone was on the "knight with shining armor's" side. We then placed all resistance in a group of evil, with bias how they hate the "free world" and want to kill all westerners. Looking back I see how we forgot to pick up *their* message, the message they gave us in the same form that we gave them months later. Instead of asking ourselves what we did wrong, we quickly proclaimed that these people are impossible to negotiate with, they want nothing except for us to die. Not realizing how we are, how they must think the exact same way as us but on the other side. Instead of looking at our mistakes and seeing how we can fix them, we attacked theirs, told them they were wrong, and conform to us or else. All without realizing that America is the one who is destroying others who will not conform, who are ones who hate everyone that reject our policy, who are too stupid to realize that our violence won't change their way of life. If a guy came into my house and threatened to kill my family I would want to sit down with him and see what led him to do this, so I change, not just kill him and become paranoid of others who might do the same. I am seeing America's downfall before my eyes. America is like a building that wants to keep on getting bigger and bigger without looking at it's base. Anyone that has ever built a toy building knows that you need to strengthen and expand the bottom every once in a while before growing to prevent the building from toppling over from underneath. We are now past the time where we need to look down at our base and expand there and not at our egos. We need to accept that others hate us, our way of living, and everything we stand for. We need to find out *our* faults and see if we can change them, not have everyone else change for us. A few minutes I got a wake-up call, which led me to create this rant. The words "I don't care" stuck me like a bullet through my spine. How we didn't care the reasons for other's actions, but only see the action itself, while, in the same breath, tell others that they need to change. I think it is time for America to step back and look at ourselves in the mirror. We are growing out of control and are doing nothing to stop it, to control it, to help the growth of others. This is one of the first times I can truly say I am ashamed of being American, ashamed of our thinking, ashamed of all our brainwashing and social training. We are looking at a downward spiral with no cure, except for the ability to open our eyes. Yes, we may have to make some sacrifices but it will be for the best in the end. Maybe in twenty or fifty years we can look at ourselves without denial, in the eyes of not just our friends, but our enemies. "We have already lost, if we do not learn from our mistakes. We have already lost, if we do not learn to change."* *Quote from band As I Lay Dying

01-03-2007, 10:30 AM	#4
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Can't find anyone second-guessing Iraq? Maybe you missed all political content on all channels for the last 18 months, and an election in which there was a vast change in power, for which Iraq policy was typically listed as the #1 reason.

01-03-2007, 12:26 PM	#9
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	Basically what I think we should have done after 9/11 is... Send a message to Al Queida for justification and the reasons behind the attack. Not because we don't know but for publicity. Then if they don't give a justified claim (they won't) then we can attack. If they give any sort of information on why they attacked, we tell the American people why and at least let them know why they attacked instead of just calling them the filth of the world and keep allowing the American people to think they are perfect.

01-03-2007, 12:28 PM	#10
yesman065 Banned - Self Imposed Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 1,847	Why do you think they attacked us? Does it really matter?

01-03-2007, 12:34 PM	#11
piercehawkeye45 Franklin Pierce Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Minnesota Posts: 3,695	I don't know exactly why they attacked us, that is the point. We don't make an attempt to find out why, even if there is no justification behind it. I'm not saying we should have mercy on them, but that we should at least know their point of view.

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