On the American Pastime

elSicomoro · 07-04-2002, 01:41 PM

Whoohoo! First thread.

Word around the campfire is that the players in the majors are talking strike sometime next month. For the last 7 years, we've had relative peace in the baseball world, although it practically took 3 seasons to get many of the fans back.

Baseball is so ingrained in the minds of many in this country. Philosophical wannabes like George Will wax nostalgic about it. We have poems about it. Ken Burns made a movie about it, not to mention all the other ones (humorous or serious) that have portrayed it. Baseball heroes are more hero-like than probably any other sport heroes in this country. It's become so popular that many cities have major and minor league teams.

The first sporting event I ever attended was a Cardinals game versus the Pirates in 1983. I've attended many games since, and have seen some great players come and go in my short time on this earth (including one who will be enshrined in the Hall of Fame in August--Ozzie Smith). Though I would say I'm probably more of a hockey fan now, I'm still a big baseball fan as well. It doesn't even have to be the Cardinals or Orioles or Phillies on...I'll watch damn near any game, which is more than I can say for other sports (minus soccer).

People will call the players and owners greedy...I guess I look at it from a capitalist and entertainment view. Julia Roberts gets $20 million dollars per film...why shouldn't Mike Piazza make $15 million per year? Baseball does not have a revenue sharing agreement as do other sports, that's why owners are sweating bullets in smaller cities like Minneapolis and Pittsburgh. It's a business like any other...profit and loss. You have to factor in players' salaries, not to mention stadium upkeep, promotion, etc.

If the players do decide to strike in August, I feel it would be another stab in the heart of the sport. Football has been fighting baseball as the most popular sport for years now...it might have even surpassed it. Baseball strikes more than any other sport, yet the fans always come back. As I mentioned earlier though, the fan return was slow from the last one...and I think it could be even slower if another 1994-like strike occurs.

Undertoad · 07-04-2002, 07:10 PM

Oh, so you're the one still going to see the Phillies. What do they draw now, like 15,000?

I dunno. The way I see it, every big stadium bought by taxpayers and named after a company, every TV time-out, every big-timing ballplayer that doesn't give a crap is another piece of soul taken from the actual games. At this point, there's hardly any soul left.

I watched one inning of baseball this year, and instantly regretted it. After it was over I remembered that the entire season could be a wash, so what's the damn point?

Clutz · 07-04-2002, 10:53 PM

If a strike doesn't kill baseball, surely it's players on-field drug use will. I can't even watch games without thinking to myself "i wonder if he's using". Since Ken Caminiti and Jose Canseco came out with their opinions, and personal experiences (Caminiti being a former MVP 1996) with steroids i can't watch a game without questioning the remarkable achievments made so recently in the game (Barry Bonds/Mark Mcgwire). And have you seen Ricky Henderson? the guy's 43 and stacked!... steroids are illegal, and testing must take place if the game is to retain any credibility.

elSicomoro · 07-04-2002, 11:05 PM

Just heard on the news that a strike date will be set Monday.

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
Oh, so you're the one still going to see the Phillies. What do they draw now, like 15,000?

Nah, I haven't been to a Phillies game yet. Last game I saw was a Cardinals-Giants game in St. Louis last summer.

The Phillies are averaging about 20,000 a game, down 10% from last year. In looking at their history, they've never drawn large numbers on average (no more than 39,000), so the new smaller stadium will be more appropriate. It doesn't help that Ed Wade and the Montgomery family are cheapskates. Sell the team to Comcast...if they want it.

Quote:

I dunno. The way I see it, every big stadium bought by taxpayers and named after a company, every TV time-out, every big-timing ballplayer that doesn't give a crap is another piece of soul taken from the actual games. At this point, there's hardly any soul left.

I agree with you to a point. A lot of what you mentioned is pure business. Yeah, it sucks, but someone is always going to push the money issue (be it FOX buying the Dodgers, or the owner of the Rangers paying A-Rod $25 million per season). Not to mention, folks have to pay to sit on top of the buildings on Waveland and Sheffield Aves. in Chicago.

At the same time, I think there's definitely been a push to get back to the basics. Camden Yards was the beginning of that...now we have these retro-style parks to make the game more intimate...we have one going up on Pattison Ave. In the region, we have a plethora of minor league teams (Camden, Trenton, Wilmington, Reading, A.C., Lakewood), which I think make the game more fun...and are certainly more affordable.

(And that's one of my goals this year...to get to a minor-league game in Trenton.)

And you still have the "good guy" players out there (few and far between as they may be). Look at the home run races in recent years. Barry Bonds is a great player, but has the personality of a jackass. That's why people weren't as interested in last year's record, as they were with Sosa and McGwire.

And the Phils pulled off a hidden-ball trick today, although it was reversed by the umps. You gotta like creativity.

Be optimistic Tony. There's still time to save the season yet.

elSicomoro · 07-04-2002, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Clutz
i can't watch a game without questioning the remarkable achievments made so recently in the game (Barry Bonds/Mark Mcgwire).

Well, we already know that McGwire used andro. I'm not overly familiar with it though...is it actually considered a steroid? I don't remember.

Quote:

And have you seen Ricky Henderson? the guy's 43 and stacked!... steroids are illegal, and testing must take place if the game is to retain any credibility.

Sosa flipped when a guy from SI asked him to take a test. I'm disappointed b/c Sosa seems like a good-enough guy to be willing to do it. I don't blame him for not doing so though. Let him do it on his or MLB's terms.

vsp · 07-05-2002, 02:42 PM

It's not as if drug use on the field is a new phenomenon. Jim Bouton wrote about it thirty years ago in Ball Four. ("Greenie up, greenie up, men, greenie up for the big one!") Lenny Dykstra used to joke with reporters about his "special vitamins." Muscleheads like Dean Palmer had all sorts of inexplicable injuries (for example, when Dean's tendon spontaneously detached and rolled up his bicep like a window-shade) hinting at steroid use. Dock Ellis pitched a no-hitter while under the influence of LSD. (Okay, the last one's not that typical.)

I do not have a knee-jerk reaction to high player salaries, because they're not entirely the players' doing. Baseball has no commissioner (Selig does not even remotely count), and the owners have no incentive or accountability to restrain spending. The agents use every precedent and dirty trick imaginable to jack their players' perceived values up, and the owners are dumb enough to fall for it every time. (The owners are legally forbidden to collude as a unit; when left to their own devices, they inevitably collapse into bidding wars.) The players' union has grown to be the strongest union in professional sports today, and is as unwilling as the owners to give the slightest concession. Every time a contract is up, a strike is viewed as a near-inevitability instead of something to be avoided.

Meanwhile, waves of expansion have dulled the talent pool. Rising salaries make it more and more difficult to hang onto talented players for any length of time, increasing the gap between the haves and have-nots. World Series games go deep into the night for television's sake, eliminating the chance for all but the most faithful to watch the climactic moments. (Likewise, all televised games drag on and on thanks to commercials.) And, like in the old days, the Yankees are favored to win every year.

And then I could get into what's wrong with the PHILLIES, but...

Nic Name · 08-17-2002, 03:38 AM

Bush will be furious if Major League Baseball strikes.

His team has already taken a beating in the press, losing Enron Field and all that, which must have pissed him off.

But a baseball strike ... now, that would be unpatriotic ... especially if they are on strike on September 11 ... in which case the terrorists have won ... the World Series.

That Guy · 08-17-2002, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sycamore
Well, we already know that McGwire used andro. I'm not overly familiar with it though...is it actually considered a steroid? I don't remember.

Andro is a naturally occurring hormone in males and females. It's somewhat a precursor to testosterone. I looked into it a few years back when I was still interested in putting on some mass. You can get it at most health stores (GNC and the like) because it's considered a dietary supplement (hey -- it's found naturally in Scottish pines, so it can't be <i>that</i> bad, right?). I decided against it when I learned that it would have no effect on younger males because their bodies produce more than enough testosterone. Androstenedione is better for guys closer to mid-30s.

Quote:

Originally posted by Nic Name
Bush will be furious if Major League Baseball strikes.

His team has already taken a beating in the press, losing Enron Field and all that, which must have pissed him off.

If the team you're talking about is the Republican Party, then that's funny. If the team you're talking about is the (L)Astros, then you're incorrect. His team was the Rangers.

Nic Name · 08-17-2002, 10:48 AM

Quote:

If the team you're talking about is the Republican Party, then that's funny.

You got it! I love it when somebody gets the twisted humor, I mean the humorous twists, in my posts. That's why the link to Enron Field shows the name over The White House.

Griff · 08-26-2002, 06:29 AM

I saw U L Washington Wednesday night. I sometimes wonder what happens to these guys when they leave the spot-light. UL is coaching first base for the New Britain Rock Cats of the International league. He got to run the show Wed night when his manager got into a beautifully orchestrated row with the first base ump and got run. On a side note, Essex Snead center fielder and baserunning wizard for the B-Mets pulled off his helmet and revealed a right handsome fro. Andro? I thought you said Afro... nevermind

warch · 08-30-2002, 04:21 PM

Whew! No Strike and the Twins get four more years. Come on playoffs. We'll show you who is expendable, Bud.

Griff · 10-02-2002, 06:29 AM

I've got a funny feeling that warch is in a good mood today.

warch · 10-02-2002, 01:39 PM

yes...but large chunks of my scalp were pulled out during the early innings yesterday. That's Twins baseball! Canadian Koskie saves our bacon. I hope they can settle down and keep rolling. My nephew is coming down from Winnipeg to try to get into Friday and Sat games.We'll see.

Cam · 10-02-2002, 02:41 PM

I missed the ending of the game last night, had to go to class

Go Twins, nothing like those teams that can't compete competing

07-04-2002, 01:41 PM	#1
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	On the American Pastime Whoohoo! First thread. Word around the campfire is that the players in the majors are talking strike sometime next month. For the last 7 years, we've had relative peace in the baseball world, although it practically took 3 seasons to get many of the fans back. Baseball is so ingrained in the minds of many in this country. Philosophical wannabes like George Will wax nostalgic about it. We have poems about it. Ken Burns made a movie about it, not to mention all the other ones (humorous or serious) that have portrayed it. Baseball heroes are more hero-like than probably any other sport heroes in this country. It's become so popular that many cities have major and minor league teams. The first sporting event I ever attended was a Cardinals game versus the Pirates in 1983. I've attended many games since, and have seen some great players come and go in my short time on this earth (including one who will be enshrined in the Hall of Fame in August--Ozzie Smith). Though I would say I'm probably more of a hockey fan now, I'm still a big baseball fan as well. It doesn't even have to be the Cardinals or Orioles or Phillies on...I'll watch damn near any game, which is more than I can say for other sports (minus soccer). People will call the players and owners greedy...I guess I look at it from a capitalist and entertainment view. Julia Roberts gets $20 million dollars per film...why shouldn't Mike Piazza make $15 million per year? Baseball does not have a revenue sharing agreement as do other sports, that's why owners are sweating bullets in smaller cities like Minneapolis and Pittsburgh. It's a business like any other...profit and loss. You have to factor in players' salaries, not to mention stadium upkeep, promotion, etc. If the players do decide to strike in August, I feel it would be another stab in the heart of the sport. Football has been fighting baseball as the most popular sport for years now...it might have even surpassed it. Baseball strikes more than any other sport, yet the fans always come back. As I mentioned earlier though, the fan return was slow from the last one...and I think it could be even slower if another 1994-like strike occurs. Last edited by elSicomoro; 07-04-2002 at 02:00 PM.

07-04-2002, 10:53 PM	#3
Clutz Alphabetarian Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Toronto.ca Posts: 12	Steroids If a strike doesn't kill baseball, surely it's players on-field drug use will. I can't even watch games without thinking to myself "i wonder if he's using". Since Ken Caminiti and Jose Canseco came out with their opinions, and personal experiences (Caminiti being a former MVP 1996) with steroids i can't watch a game without questioning the remarkable achievments made so recently in the game (Barry Bonds/Mark Mcgwire). And have you seen Ricky Henderson? the guy's 43 and stacked!... steroids are illegal, and testing must take place if the game is to retain any credibility. __________________ Go Big, or Go Home

08-26-2002, 06:29 AM	#10
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	I saw U L Washington Wednesday night. I sometimes wonder what happens to these guys when they leave the spot-light. UL is coaching first base for the New Britain Rock Cats of the International league. He got to run the show Wed night when his manager got into a beautifully orchestrated row with the first base ump and got run. On a side note, Essex Snead center fielder and baserunning wizard for the B-Mets pulled off his helmet and revealed a right handsome fro. Andro? I thought you said Afro... nevermind __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

10-02-2002, 06:29 AM	#12
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	I've got a funny feeling that warch is in a good mood today. __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

10-02-2002, 01:39 PM	#13
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	yes...but large chunks of my scalp were pulled out during the early innings yesterday. That's Twins baseball! Canadian Koskie saves our bacon. I hope they can settle down and keep rolling. My nephew is coming down from Winnipeg to try to get into Friday and Sat games.We'll see. Last edited by warch; 10-02-2002 at 01:44 PM.

07-04-2002, 07:10 PM	#2
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Oh, so you're the one still going to see the Phillies. What do they draw now, like 15,000? I dunno. The way I see it, every big stadium bought by taxpayers and named after a company, every TV time-out, every big-timing ballplayer that doesn't give a crap is another piece of soul taken from the actual games. At this point, there's hardly any soul left. I watched one inning of baseball this year, and instantly regretted it. After it was over I remembered that the entire season could be a wash, so what's the damn point?

07-05-2002, 02:42 PM	#6
vsp Syndrome of a Down Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: West Chester Posts: 1,367	It's not as if drug use on the field is a new phenomenon. Jim Bouton wrote about it thirty years ago in Ball Four. ("Greenie up, greenie up, men, greenie up for the big one!") Lenny Dykstra used to joke with reporters about his "special vitamins." Muscleheads like Dean Palmer had all sorts of inexplicable injuries (for example, when Dean's tendon spontaneously detached and rolled up his bicep like a window-shade) hinting at steroid use. Dock Ellis pitched a no-hitter while under the influence of LSD. (Okay, the last one's not that typical.) I do not have a knee-jerk reaction to high player salaries, because they're not entirely the players' doing. Baseball has no commissioner (Selig does not even remotely count), and the owners have no incentive or accountability to restrain spending. The agents use every precedent and dirty trick imaginable to jack their players' perceived values up, and the owners are dumb enough to fall for it every time. (The owners are legally forbidden to collude as a unit; when left to their own devices, they inevitably collapse into bidding wars.) The players' union has grown to be the strongest union in professional sports today, and is as unwilling as the owners to give the slightest concession. Every time a contract is up, a strike is viewed as a near-inevitability instead of something to be avoided. Meanwhile, waves of expansion have dulled the talent pool. Rising salaries make it more and more difficult to hang onto talented players for any length of time, increasing the gap between the haves and have-nots. World Series games go deep into the night for television's sake, eliminating the chance for all but the most faithful to watch the climactic moments. (Likewise, all televised games drag on and on thanks to commercials.) And, like in the old days, the Yankees are favored to win every year. And then I could get into what's wrong with the PHILLIES, but...

08-17-2002, 03:38 AM	#7
Nic Name retired Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,930	Bush will be furious if Major League Baseball strikes. His team has already taken a beating in the press, losing Enron Field and all that, which must have pissed him off. But a baseball strike ... now, that would be unpatriotic ... especially if they are on strike on September 11 ... in which case the terrorists have won ... the World Series.

08-30-2002, 04:21 PM	#11
warch lurkin old school Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Minnesota Posts: 2,796	Whew! No Strike and the Twins get four more years. Come on playoffs. We'll show you who is expendable, Bud.

10-02-2002, 02:41 PM	#14
Cam dripping with ignorance Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Grand Forks ND Posts: 642	I missed the ending of the game last night, had to go to class Go Twins, nothing like those teams that can't compete competing __________________ After the seventh beer I generally try and stay away from the keyboard, I apologize for what happens when I fail.

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