Christians and Pagans

[Dagney]

I know that on another thread, there's a fairly involved discussion going on about Wicca, Christianity, and Paganism. I thought that perhaps this would be a better place for that discussion (Besides, I keep losing it in the IOTD/Doodads threads *G*)

I have a friend who is a Wiccan and she also calls herself a witch. When I asked her what a witch was, she sent the following to me. Perhaps it can help BUGZ figure out her own definition of the word.

--
I am a witch.
I do not worship Satan; I am not interested in Satan. Satan was invented by the Christians. Satanism is a form of Christianity.
I am not a Christian.
I don't go to church on Sunday.Jesus is NOT my savior. He was simply a holy man who lived 2,000 years ago.
I am not afraid of going to Hell because I don't believe in Hell any more than I believe in Satan. I believe in reincarnation; that I will come back to this world oranother and live out another life.
I am not evil. Telling people I am a "good witch" or asking me if I am a good witch implies that there are evil witches.
There are evil people in the world, and there are people who chose to work with the forces of nature in a way that harms others; those people are NOT witches.
The central law of being a witch is:"if it harms none, do as you will."
Please don't ask me about sacrificing cats or desecrating churches. I love my cats. And I don't go into churches or synagogues unless a friend from that religion invites me to some special occasion.
And if I DO enter a church, I am not struck by lightning.
And if a Christian or a Jew or a Buddhist came to a pagan ritual, our gods would not strike them dead either.
Isn't that something to think about?
Wearing a pentacle is no different than wearing a cross, crucifix, or Star of David.
If you want me to take off the symbol of MY religion (and Wicca is a religion, protected by the same First Amendment rights as other
religions) because it's offensive, you need to make everyone of every religion do that.
The five points of the star signify the four elements of Earth, Air,
Fire and Water, and the fifth point is Spirit; encircled by the World.
How that can offend anyone boggles my little pagan mind. An image of a tortured, dying man is more offensive, yet thousands of people openly wear crucifixes every day.
Also, don't ask me if I'm in a "coven" in that half-horrified, half-fascinated tone of voice. If I want to talk about my coven, I will bring it up. If I am a solitary practitioner, I have no coven to discuss.
In any case, our rituals have candles, food, drink, poetry, dancing...yes, there is a knife but it only cuts the air, not anyone's flesh.
I don't drink blood. I am not some kind of vampire. I wear black because it keeps negativity away and because it looks better on me than orange and purple polka dots.
If you want to ask me something related to MY religion, ask me when the next full moon is. Or the next blue moon. Or what a blue moon IS. Ask me about herbs. Crystals. Healing. Even ask me to make you a love potion. But I don't cast spells on other people and I won't cast a spell on you to make you prettier, thinner, more desirable. And I won't cast a spell on your quarry to make him/her love you. Trust me, you don't want that, you don't want the karma that involves, and neither do I! That's a form of manipulation, taking away someone's power, infringing on their free will. Not nice at all.
And I also won't cast a binding spell to make someone STOP doing
something to you. Spell work is about co-creation. A witch works with universal energy, With the gods, to tilt the engine of probability somewhat.
Need money? Don't try to ensorcel your boss to give you a raise.
Simply ask the universe to increase the flow of abundance in your
direction. That infringes on NO ONE's free will.
One last thing: giving me a book about the Burning Times is like giving a book on the Holocaust to a Jewish person. It's not funny and is rude.
Yes, I do go to Salem, but not because any of those poor executed people were witches, (I think the jury is still out on some of them), but because there's cool pagan shops there.
If there were cool pagan shops in a town called East Cowflop, I'd go there.
Please don't try to make me ashamed of who I worship and what I am. Please don't try to convert me or "save" me. Don't throw holy water on me. Don't leave little pamphlets on my desk or windshield.
I don't need to be saved.
Witches are proud of the fact that we don't recruit people to become witches. We simply ARE, and those around us see how we think, how we act, and our inner peace, and only when someone says "how do I become a witch?" do we take them into the fold with us.
I will NEVER leave a religious tract with anyone. I don't have one, unless you count this letter. And I am not asking you to convert.
I am only asking you to understand. If you don't want to understand, just leave me alone.


NOTE (I do not know the original source of this, and did not write it. But I'm willing to talk about it!)

Dagney

[Chewbaccus]

So, according to her, Wiccans/witches are like the metaphysical equivalent of hackers - decent people, bad PR.

Meh. I reiterate my original position - I believe in God, you don't. Okay. I'm no apostle, I'm not going to try and convert you, I haven't felt an urge to do so. The way I see it, we'll find out who had the better hand sooner or later.

[LUVBUGZ]

Thanks Dagney for the post. Your friend, although she may not be the author of the piece, seems to be a "good" witch like Els. Everything there has basically been reiterated by Els in our conversation. Of course, I don't want to put words in his mouth, but I'll ask him to read this and give his opinion and see if we could shift our conversation over to this thread

[OnyxCougar]

I am also Wiccan. I used to be in a coven, but I'm a solo practitioner now. And I loved the letter. Thanks Dagney!

[Elspode]

This particular piece has made the rounds for awhile, and it is essentially correct (or rather, I should say that it is essentially applicable to my particular path). I would only disagree with the part that says:

"There are evil people in the world, and there are people who chose to work with the forces of nature in a way that harms others; those people are NOT witches.
The central law of being a witch is:'if it harms none, do as you will.' "

There are people who are indeed witches, but who do not follow the Wiccan Rede, which is "And it harm none, do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.", which is essentially the same as that which is quoted by the writer. However, saying that those who do not follow the Rede are not witches is presumptuous and incorrect. As I stated before in the thread over in Quality Images, not all witches are Wiccan, in much the same way that not all Christians are, say, Baptist.

Saying that an evil person who uses the forces of nature to do bad stuff is not a witch is simply untrue. They are probably not a *Wiccan* witch, but a witch they may indeed be. They just aren't a witch like me, or like the writer of the piece, and they aren't a witch whose methods and practices would fit within my ethics and morals. That, however, does not give me the right to say that they aren't a true witch, because they are...they're just not a Wiccan witch.

The rest of the stuff is pretty much right on, from the point of view of the path which I follow. Others may have varying opinions.

[LUVBUGZ]

Els, what is the Wiccan Rede? A Wiccan "bible" for lack of a better term?

That, however, does not give me the right to say that they aren't a true witch, because they are...they're just not a Wiccan witch.

I understand, as we have discussed this before. Thanks Els

PS--don't forget to post those pics, and BTY, why do you refer to them as "graven" images/objects? Sounds kinda scary, like death or having to do w/ dying.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Graven as in engraved, not in the grave.

[Dagney]

Originally posted by LUVBUGZ
Els, what is the Wiccan Rede? A Wiccan "bible" for lack of a better term?

The Wiccan Rede is a "code of ethics" of sorts for Wiccans. A link to one can be found Here

Graven images for Wiccans are the same as those for Christians You know, from the Ten Commandments ("Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing, nor the likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or in the earth beneath, nor of those things that are in the waters under the earth.") It's an image of something that we hold 'holy'.

And if you ask nicely, I'm sure a few others who may have Pagan or Wiccan beliefs may offer their own opinions.

Dagney

[Dagney]

Perhaps you should not try to read so much into what others have to say to you.

I meant no insult by my phrase "ask nicely". It's MY "style" of interacting with people.

There are those of us who come off as being "argumentative, rude, or just plain bitchy" (Traits I'm not sure I'd be proud of)
And there are those of us who truly believe that you can catch more flies with honey than you can with vinegar. I'm one of those people, who try to be more friendly than bitchy. Trust me, if I was being bitchy, you'd _know_ it.

Seeing that you've made the assumption that there are a number of people here who have made an attempt to 'attack' you in some way, shape or form, I'd say it's more than likely not us....

But that's just MY opinion, and I'm entitled to it.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by LUVBUGZ

I'm not sure you know what you're talking about Bruce. We're talking witches here:p
Unless, of course, Els says the same thing

No, not witches, ENGLISH.:p Look it up.

[juju]

I find that people who are new to the internet often have problems interpreting moods and intent behind the written word. Lots of times, one sentence or phrase can be interpreted five or six different ways. It takes practice to work around this, but I'm sure you'll get it in time. But don't worry... we <i>all</i> went through this phase.

[Whit]

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Heh, hey Bruce, how does it feel to know that your basic knowledge is meaningless without someone else's okay? Don't worry Juju seems to think you'll get it in time.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Dagney, thanks for piece and the link. Also thanks for opening this discussion up a bit. I didn't realize that the Cellar had such a high Wiccan population.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Onyx, if I may ask a very personal question, why did you leave your coven? I realize it's kind of rude to ask but I was curious. If you don't want to talk about it feel free to ignore me or tell me where to go. Sorry if it's to personnal.

[juju]

I take it back. Bruce will <i>always</i> need someone to hold his hand. :)

[Elspode]

Yow! I didn't realize I was an authority (and let's just clear something up, here...I am *not* an authority on *anything*, I just have opinions, and I am sometimes able to describe and discuss things with which I am familiar).

LBZ, "graven" means carved, engraved, that sort of thing (Bruce, as usual, was correct. Bruce is a smart and much-experienced feller, it seems to me). This particular usage has nothing to do with death (unless, of course, you happen to have a graven image of Kali or something...).

I like to use the term "graven image" when I refer to all the little statues and representations of deities that we collect because, well, The Ten Commandments describes them that way, and I like to be as concise as possible when breaking the Commandments I don't agree with.

Onyx, I'd be real interested in hearing why you became a Solitary as well, if it isn't too personal or painful. My wife and I have had three major coven breakups in six years (our home is our Covenstead, and she is the HPS), and I'm always keen to hear other people's experiences. I like to think that I can always learn more about my path and the dynamics of covencraft.

As for the graven images, well...go here, http://www.lunalushede.org/Covenstead/Index.htm
and you can see some shots taken in our ritual room. Things like the altar (the dresser covered with a yellow towel, which doubles as our Eastern corner due to a lack of space) will probably look very familiar to Onyx, as it is a fairly standard setup for Wiccans.

These pics will give you an idea of what we have put together as our ritual area. The red, blue and green covered tables are all appointed with things appropriate to the elements represented - Fire, Water and Earth, respectively. The yellow represents Air. You'll see our apothecary (giant spice rack, basically) which contains all of our herbs and such, you'll see the two pics showing our collection of "graven images", and you'll see a lot of artwork of naked and nearly naked women.

This is a quick and dirty slideshow...I didn't do *anything* to gussy it up, but it helps to explain some of what we have been discussing. Enjoy.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by Dagney
Trust me, if I was being bitchy, you'd _know_ it.

No...that couldn't be. A sweet lovable person like you.