spanking or not?

[DanaC]

Parents who hit their children, aren't necessairly violent

LOL!!!

Glad you find that funny. I know many people who have in some instances given their child a slap on the back of their leg....not hard enough to hurt, does that make them violent people? Their three year old just came perilously close to running out onto a busy main road, they underline their displeasure (and parental panic) with an almost symbolic smack that doesn't hurt, that makes them violent people? The words we're using cover a large spectrum, from something that barely registers, to something that will hurt and humiliate.

[Clodfobble]

Rkz, have you found the occasion to need to use any punishments other than discussion with your son?

[Stormieweather]

I'll tell you what I learned from being spanked as a child:

I deserve to be hit. And that carried over into not one, but two, abusive marriages.

Violence gets people's attention. Just as dear old mom and dad hit me when I smartmouthed them, why shouldn't I hit classmate X when they mock me?

There is a very thin line between spanking and abuse and when a parent loses their temper, that line gets real blurry, real fast. The child learns to endure the hitting and starts to ignore your admonitions, so you hit harder and longer to regain that control.

Children become numb to being spanked/hit, so you have to up the ante. First it's a smack on the hand, then the bottom, then a full-fledged multi-hit spanking, then you get out the belt. Slap them across the face this time, and it's a short trip to punching them in the mouth next time.

Fear is NOT respect Fear as well as anger produce adreneline. It can be addictive to feel the surge of adreneline when you get angry or fearful. But this doesn't help anyone use their powers of reason or intellect to solve problems. Obeying the rules out of fear doesn't instill internal values, rather, it teaches a child to not get caught.

Pain = love "I'm doing this because I love you." "If I didn't love you so much, I wouldn't care, but because I do love you, I must punish you by hurting you". After a spanking, possibly while one's buttocks are still burning, you get a hug or cuddle. So love=pain=love.

But ask me what I was being spanked FOR...and I couldn't answer you. I don't remember the reasons, the transgressions that I committed, or the lessons I was being taught. Very effective, those spankings .

Sure, time-out, taking away privileges, toys, things/activities that he likes. But, even those are always just things to get his attention when he is too wound-up so we can explain why what he did was wrong so he can understand it, the only reason to punish a child.
There is always something that you can do that is not hitting that is more important to a child than being hit.
Still, those times are VERY rare, usually, he responds to discussion first and having us being disappointed in him and just the idea of doing something wrong is worse than anything else.
He has morals.

Yes Dana, if they hit their kid, at that moment, they are violent... that is the definition.
Again, what does it teach them?
I think Stormie just told us.

[monster]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Everything a child sees, hears and experiences, especially from their parents teaches them something.
You, as their parent decide what that is. That is your job.
Other than trying to avoid saying that... you said nothing.

I said you are claiming opinions as facts. That is all. I am not avoiding saying anything -you are trying to put words in my mouth and then argue about it. I am expressing no opinion on the rights and wrongs of "spanking" because I'm not entirely sure what my opinion is.

But I do object to half-assed amateur shrinks expounding their beliefs as "facts", no matter how logical they may be.

Violence is not the only way to be a bully. I do hope this is not the way you "discuss" right and wrong with your son.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

Sure, time-out, taking away privileges, toys, things/activities that he likes.

So would you agree that you are teaching him that he should take other people's things when they annoy him?

[Stormieweather]

This article says it better than I can:

Parents hitting their children has been accepted as a form of discipline in our society for so long that some parents can't imagine that it is possible to discipline children without hitting them. We have learned that not only is it possible to discipline children without hitting them, but it is impossible to discipline children by hitting them. Making children feel worse does not make them behave better. Dr. Daniel F. Whiteside, former Assistant Surgeon General, reported that, "Corporal punishment of children actually interferes with the process of learning and with their optimal development as socially responsible adults. We feel that it is important for public health workers, teachers and others concerned for the emotional and physical health of children and youth to support the adoption of alternative methods for the achievement of self-control and responsible behavior in children and adolescents."

When most of us were growing up, it was believed that as long as the hitting did no permanent physical damage, the physical punishment would "teach us a lesson." Although the words punishment and discipline are often used as if they mean the same things, punishment and discipline are very different. Punishment is defined as arbitrary harsh treatment for wrong doing. Discipline means to teach. The only "lessons" we teach children when we hit them are to hit, fear, and distrust those who hit them.

Most parents intend to teach their children to be courteous, respectful, responsible, kind and loving. Children learn most from imitating what they see us do. Since hitting is not courteous, respectful, responsible, kind or loving, how can we possibly expect to teach our children those things by hitting them? Hitting is punishment, not discipline. Punishing children doesn't teach them why their behavior was unacceptable or what they should do instead. Punishment is meant to deter children from repeating the behavior by being painful or unpleasant enough to cause the child to want to avoid being punished again. In theory, this method may sound effective, but in reality, being punished causes children to think more about the wrong that was done to them than the wrong they did.

The goal of parental discipline is to teach children self-discipline. If the only reason children have for not doing something wrong is the threat of being punished, then what guidelines will they have for acceptable behavior when no one is there to punish them? Hitting children when we catch them doing something wrong doesn't teach them how to do what's right; it teaches them that they need to be sneaky and to lie to avoid being caught.

Hitting children not only hurts their bodies, it hurts their hearts and minds. Instead of giving them the message that what they did was bad, being hit causes children to believe that they are bad. Research shows that children who are hit have lower self-esteem than children who are not hit. There is even some evidence from a British study that children who are hit may be less able to learn because physical punishments reduce children's IQ. Being hit triggers the fight or flight response in human beings. When we are hit, our rational thinking shuts down. All we can think about is hitting back or running away to protect ourselves. If we can't think about why what we did was wrong, we can't learn the right thing to do either. Most adults who were hit as children tell us that while they remember being hit, they don't remember why. This is more evidence that hitting fails as a form of discipline or teaching.

While not all people who were hit as children grow up to be hitters, all adults who hit grew up either being hit or witnessing hitting. When an adult hits another adult we call it assault. When a husband or wife hits the other we call it battering. When a big kid hits a little kid we call it bullying. When a parent hits a child we call it spanking. No matter what name we give it - a swat, slap, tap or spank, it is hitting. When the adults in a family hit each other we call it domestic violence. Why then, when the adults hit the children in the family, do we call it discipline? Nowhere else in our society is hitting considered acceptable. Isn't all hitting violence?

http://www.connectionparenting.com/p.../spanking.html

[DucksNuts]

Originally Posted by RK

When I was in my 20's I taught a 16 yr old to beat up his dad. Something I am still very proud of.

Youre saying its not OK to smack your child, but its ok for you to be proud of teaching a son to beat his dad? Which TAUGHT him that violence is the way to fix problems?


This topic always amuses me when it comes into play.

Its like the tattooed person v's a non tattooed person.

How about, you parent your way and I will parent mine?

Difference is, I wont try and force my way down your throat and think my opinion is a fact

[yesman065]

"Mom Accused of Hitting Kids on Flight
DENVER (AP) -- Flight crews appropriately handled a passenger accused of repeatedly hitting her two young children on a Frontier Airlines flight, a company spokesman said.

An FBI affidavit alleges that Tamera Jo Freeman, 38, hit and cursed at her 4-year-old daughter and 2-year-old son during a flight from San Francisco to Denver on Monday. It also alleges that she assaulted and intimidated a flight attendant who intervened.

Freeman was arrested after the plane landed and was held for investigation of interference with a flight crew and assault on children, both federal charges. A judge said at a brief hearing Friday in U.S. District Court that she would remain in custody until another hearing next week.

The flight attendant intervened in the middle or near the end of the flight, and crew members followed airline rules, Frontier spokesman Joe Hodas said. The flight crew served Freeman two drinks, he said.

The children have been placed in the custody of relatives in California. Freeman's hometown wasn't released, and her court-appointed attorney, Martha Eskesen, declined to comment outside the courtroom Friday.

The FBI affidavit said Freeman told an investigator she "lost it" and slapped her children during the flight because they were fighting over the window shade and because her daughter had spilled a drink.

Six witnesses said Freeman hit the children on their legs, shoulders and knees, the affidavit said. Freeman appeared "drunk and violent" toward the children even before she boarded the plane, the affidavit said.

Freeman faces up to 21 years in prison and fines up to $350,000 if convicted of both charges."

A fitting punishment???

[Aliantha]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

So someone will never obey a rule to get a reward?

This is the point ph.

There are road rules. No one rewards you for following them, but if you don't, you're going to either get booked, in an accident or killed.

There are house rules. You might get rewarded if you follow them although I don't agree with this philosophy. I believe every individual in the household is responsible for certain things which may include jobs, but it also includes being considerate of the other members of the household. This is an every day courtesy and I don't see why anyone should be rewarded for that other than being thanked for their efforts.

I don't reward my kids with lollies and treats or extra screen time. They get enough junk when I'm not watching, and they spend too much time watching tv etc already. They are rewarded by knowing they've got parents who love them and care for them, and who go out of their way to make their lives better.

It's a parents moral responsibility to teach kids to realize there's more to life than just them.

I don't subscribe to all this new bullshit people keep coming up with about not smacking etc. Some kids need a wack every once in a while. Others don't.

There are enough selfish people in the world already. I wont have my kids growing up thinking they're the centre of the universe and if they need a smack once in a while to bring them back down to earth, that's what they're going to get.

If you want my honest opinion - in case you don't get it yet - there's too much navel gazing going on these days and not enough doing.

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by SandraC

I want both of my children to respect discipline and authorities and want them both to know that there is always going to be rules and laws that they have to follow or they will have to suffer the consequences.

Sounds like you are doing a great job. This is the key. Keep up the good work mom.

[smurfalicious]

spanking is fabulous! i prefer the nekkid hand or a wide, flat brush, hard enough to sting a little...


oh, wait, are we talking about spanking kids???

Originally Posted by DucksNuts

Youre saying its not OK to smack your child, but its ok for you to be proud of teaching a son to beat his dad? Which TAUGHT him that violence is the way to fix problems?


This topic always amuses me when it comes into play.

Its like the tattooed person v's a non tattooed person.

How about, you parent your way and I will parent mine?

Difference is, I wont try and force my way down your throat and think my opinion is a fact

He was an adult and I taught him to defend himself and his mother. I am a firm believer in self-defense, even as a pacifist, no matter who is hitting you and your loved one(s).

Violence is not the only way to be a bully. I do hope this is not the way you "discuss" right and wrong with your son.

I find it very humorous how you read tone into my text, lol!

I do not steal his toys, I only keep him from playing with them until the next day, and that is a last resort... usually we use a time-out until he is calm and our conversations are very loving.
He does not wish to do wrong, we have instilled a desire to do the right thing for the right reasons... not a fear of being hit or embarrassed in public.

Difference is, I wont try and force my way down your throat and think my opinion is a fact

It happens that my opinion is backed by science and our society seems to think assault is everyone's business.

"It's not nice to hit people; children are people."
- Pam Leo

A fitting punishment???

If they were anyone else's kids would we be asking?
That answers the question.

[Clodfobble]

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

I do not steal his toys, I only keep him from playing with them until the next day, and that is a last resort... usually we use a time-out until he is calm and our conversations are very loving.

Yes, ideally all punishments would be a last resort, and bookended before and after with loving discussions and explanations of right and wrong. There is an appropriate and inappropriate way to administer all punishments.

But you didn't answer the question. If using spanking as a punishment by definition teaches that child that hitting will solve their problems, then doesn't taking away their toys by definition teach the child that taking other people's things (even temporarily) will solve their problems?

Or is it possible that both can be experienced by the child for what they are, a specific punishment, handed down from adult to child, as a consequence of a specific behavior, without any extra emotional baggage?


[begin tangential rant]The most irritating thing in the world is listening to people who have only one child telling others how to parent. Those with no children are commonly railed against for offering their two cents, but to a certain degree even they know that it might be different were they really in the parents' shoes. But the parent with one child thinks they have it all figured out, that because they know how to parent their child, they have the whole of parenting mastered. The minute you have a second child, you realize that every single child is different, even ones who share both genes and environment, and nothing can be the end-all solution for every child.

We have a child, for example, whom we have never spanked--because he asks for it. I mean that quite literally, when he is in trouble he requests a spanking in lieu of other punishments. This is a child who has always been stoic, even as a toddler if he fell he would blink back tears and insist that he was "fine" even though he was limping. Obviously spanking would not be an effective punishment with him, so we never have--but the fact remains that if he would prefer it, can it really be said that it would emotionally scar him more than it does when we have to take away his beloved (and I mean beloved) trucks? Meanwhile, in another thread on this topic, lookout123 shared the story of his three-year-old, whose inappropriate behavior led to the typical punishment of his favorite toy being taken away. His son calmly went into his room, and began bringing all of his toys out one by one and laying them at his parents' feet. "You can take all of these too, because I'm going to keep doing it."

Each child responds to different punishments, but almost all young children require some punishment at some time. The brain goes through distinct levels of maturity with regard to morality, and a two-year-old simply does not understand the concept of empathy or right and wrong yet. Ultimately, the goal would be that by the age of 5 or so, they understand the idea of doing things simply because they are right, and for the most part no longer require punishing. But prior to that age, each child has their own completely unique way of interpreting and responding to the world around them, and being a successful parent to one doesn't mean jack squat about how well one would do with a different kid. [/end rant]

[yesman065]

Great "tangential rant" clod - I'll add that the third child changes the dynamic exponentially too. I think I hit my youngest son once - AFTER he hit his mother and he was plenty old enough to know what he did and how wrong it was. That message was received. We discussed, some time later, what exactly had happened and the whys so on - Its been years and there has never been another isue with it. Proper parenting is as different as we all are. There is no "one way" to do it.