3/4/2004: Ashoura 2004

[jaguar]

thankyou.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by jaguar
oh and troubleshooter:

i suggest a reading of Plato's cave.

I have. It illustrates my point well. Everything that happens in that allegory points to the issue of interpretation, not reality itself. To us it was shadows on a wall, to them it was the totality of their experience. The one that got away learned that the shadows were just that and that there is a whole lot more out there if you are willing and/or able to encounter it.

[jaguar]

Reality is not subjective. How that reality is defined is what is subjective. Rain falls, lightning crashes, and babies are born regardles of whether we choose to experience it or not.

My point was this plays both ways - we may experience it but it doesn't mean it does actually happen. Reality is subjective, it's subject to the limitations of our senses, all we have to work with is what we recieve in input, with no way of verifying that is in fact the 'truth'. Of course whether the truth is defined by what we see...

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
But I must say, he's pretty popular for a man everyone was vilifying in "need advice."

Posting logical arguments (or even semi-logical), will draw people who agree and disagree. No popularity involved, just discussion (or argument ).
I may agree with someones stance today and disagree with them tomorrow, or even the next thread. There's no liking or disliking, because I don't know them. Even people that post a lot only show what they want to show of themselves.
You may think you know someone from gleaning posts and reading between the lines but how do you know the whole package isn't crafted. How would you know I'm really a cross eyed, midget, nun with 8 fingers on each hand, that tortures kittens and slaps babies, from my posts?

[Lady Sidhe]

Like I said, I was frustrated and stressed and I posted out of hand. All I can do is apologize.

[Shattered Soul]

Originally posted by Troubleshooter


I have. It illustrates my point well. Everything that happens in that allegory points to the issue of interpretation, not reality itself. To us it was shadows on a wall, to them it was the totality of their experience. The one that got away learned that the shadows were just that and that there is a whole lot more out there if you are willing and/or able to encounter it.

Something MADE those shadows, though, and while the shadows were not the totality of what was out there, they were made by something DID exist in reality.

Spirituality is like that...we can only see shadows. You're insisting that the shadow itself does not exist.

If I see a shadow of a flower, and believe that is the totality of the flower, I may not be entirely correct in that belief, but it doesn't mean that the flower doesn't exist. It merely means that I have not yet grasped the totality of the flower's existence, only a limited part.

It seems that you are comfortable only with what you can experience with your senses, and are thus closing yourself off to other experiences. It's your choice to do that. If contemplating something greater than yourself makes you uncomfortable, that's your issue. But others, INCLUDING Plato, DID believe in one or more gods, ie, a conscious creator, and merely because you can't prove it to your satisfaction does not mean that it does not exist, and doesn't mean that those who DO believe in such a being are being silly.

[mrnoodle]

Originally posted by Troubleshooter
Reality is not subjective. How that reality is defined is what is subjective. Rain falls, lightning crashes, and babies are born regardles of whether we choose to experience it or not.

And what about truth?

I think Jaguar actually covered this already, but the difference to me is that rain might be falling (truth), but if I'm unaware of it, it's not part of my reality.

Originally posted by Troubleshooter
Religion is man's attempt to rationalize an unknown and apparently uncaring world into sometheing where he has some control or consolation.

Religion is also a social control tool that came about in the place of government or to replace, resist, assist government

It's becoming pure semantics now, but religion requires the God component. Your first definition could also be the definition for "sports betting" or "beer".

Religion as social control is a byproduct of religious people believing they possess ultimate truth as revealed to them via their religion. It's a chicken/egg thing I guess.

Originally posted by TS
There is no guarantee that any one of them is true.(snip)...If you think that what proof has been given is sufficient then more power to you, but if you dig a little deeper then you find that most of the myths of the bible are pulled from an earlier religion in the first place so wouldn't that then lend more credence to the earlier religions instead?

I said 'if'. At any rate, the truth of something is not subject to any guarantee, warranty, or proof we assign to it. Without getting into some long epistemology discussion, it's a fairly recent arrogance on the part of science that restricts 'reality' or 'truth' to what is measurable by physicists or scientists.

As for older religions contributing to newer ones - of course they do. Our history wasn't erased when Jesus died, and the Christian religion was born. But Jesus was a historical figure, and the historical events surrounding his life and death did in fact fulfill Judaic prophesy. The fact that Zoroastrianism preceded either Christianity, Judaism, or Islam is irrelevant. Whether or not Eve ate a literal apple given to her by a literal snake is academic. What matters is that the consequences of that real or metaphoric event were answered, and the price paid, by the death of Christ.

This is the image of the day thread....I'll be over in philosophy if you want to continue (I sense rolled eyes from the people who came here to see nifty car wrecks and pet bison - I include myself in this group)

[quzah]

Originally posted by glatt
I would never do that to either of my young children. The images are distubing. I think it's crazy.

Have any boys? Circumcised? Barbaric or holy ritual?
[edit]Bah. Topic's already in this thread. Point still holds though.[/edit]

Quzah.

[jaguar]

If I see a shadow of a flower, and believe that is the totality of the flower, I may not be entirely correct in that belief, but it doesn't mean that the flower doesn't exist. It merely means that I have not yet grasped the totality of the flower's existence, only a limited part.

What if you're actually looking at the shadow of something entirely different that looks like the shadow of a flower. A tad tenuous to base your life around isn't it? Hey! That cloud looks like a flower.

In the end I'm with troubleshooter, I'm not going to base my life around shadows and ideas, while there is nothing solid I'll err on the side of caution and work with what I know, anything else is opening yourself up to irrational thought.

It's becoming pure semantics now, but religion requires the God component. Your first definition could also be the definition for "sports betting" or "beer".

God is a little narrow. How about gods? spririts? fairies? small blue men? All religion requires is faith in something.

Glatt - no more crazy than half drowning your poor kid at only a few months old.

[Shattered Soul]

Reply is in Philosophy

[lumberjim]

Originally posted by Lady Sidhe


Yes. I'm sorry. You're right. It's inappropriate, and I apologize to everyone. No more personals. I promise. Cross my heart.

Sidhe

hey , look, Hot_pastrami!...i think i may have prevented some drama pollution! you were right!

[Troubleshooter]

...

[glatt]

Originally posted by quzah

Have any boys? Circumcised? Barbaric or holy ritual?
[edit]Bah. Topic's already in this thread. Point still holds though.[/edit]

Quzah.

Yeah, sure, my son is circumcised. You have a good point.

You will notice, that further down in my same post where I said that they are crazy, I suggested keeping an open mind about other cultures.

"Keeping an open mind" doesn't mean that you have to agree with them, it just means that you should give them a chance before you label them as strange and deserving to die.