Survival Lessons to be learned from the Victims (long)

tw · 05-29-2002, 12:16 AM

The NY Times on 26 May 2002 collected a five page story on what people in the upper stories faced in their last 102 minutes. Those who live on ghoul need not bother reading. But for those who wish to learn and especially for those who want to be knowledgeable... welcome. Of 2400 people who died, about 1100 survived after aircraft crashed only to die, trapped, in the collapse. Why many did or did not survive is why we want to know these details. Unfortunately, little effort was provided by the 'powers that be' to learn from the rubble. Most evidence was destroyed with total disregard for facts. But we have these testimonies and video footage. It is known that at least 353 communicated out after the crash and before they died. What they saw is telling.

First, the collisions caused major structural twisting in both towers as the buildings vibrated in a wave that was three or four seconds long. Within 20 minutes, many floors far from impact zones were buckling. Many fire exit doors were jammed tight. No tools existed within the building, such as crowbars or axes, to force open those doors. For example many people from the 83 through 86th floor were saved by unknown Port Authority employees from a lower floor who forced open stairway doors. Those PA employees died in their efforts to free the stairways. All stairways were filled with sheetrock, installed only 8 years previously, for fire protection but blown off the wall. Again, no tools were available to break through this destruction.

The towers were constructed assuming certain things would happen. For example, sprinklers were expected to be working. Firemen were expected to be on scene within sufficient time (after 1 hour they had only gotten to the 50th floor). Fire insulation was expected to remain intact. At least some elevators were expected to be working. Reality was different. Each building with over 100 elevators only had three stairways all grouped together. Water for sprinklers, stairways, and elevators were concentrated in the same location meaning that nearly all became early victims.

The first struck, WTC1 (North Tower) at floors 94 thru 98, is known to have two stairways completely blocked at the 92nd floor. Since stairway A was closer to the impact site and adjacent to blocked Stairway B, then it too is assumed to have been obstructed. Below that, only one stairway was clear enough to use. All but 84 victims below the 92nd Floor got out. Some victims were well below where no fire nor smoke existed such as Floors 68, 82, and 83 - for unknown reasons. But no one from 92 up survived.

Carr Futures was on floor 92. Of 68 people, 30 were trapped in a conference room due to a jammed door. They never did get out. Jammed doors with no tools to open them were common throughout both buildings. About 40 others retreated to the far, unfinished end of floor 92. Before collapse, the entire 92nd floor was engulfed in fire.

Fire is only known to have been on floors 88, 92 thru 99, and 104 although others could have been involved. But smoke and heat were the most serious problems. For example, people on floors 106 and 107, Windows on the World, were in trouble within 20 minutes. Even the floors were buckling and ceilings falling over while this was over 1 hour before the building would collapse. A WPIX-TV engineer on 110 had access to the roof but refused to leave his office due to smoke and heat.

Generally, closer to top floors meant conditions deteriorated fastest. Smoke and heat was worst in floors above 100. Fires apparently traveled up elevator shafts and stairways, and may have spread onto other floors. We may never know since evidence was destroyed. Although some are known to have tried for the roof, no one succeed. Not that it made any difference. Helicopters could not land on either tower due to obstructions everywhere.

Many people began evacuating WTC2 when the PA system told them they were safer in their offices. Stanley Paimnath of Fuji Bank had evacuated to the lobby but returned to his desk per those instructions. He was talking to Chicago when he spotted the plane fly past the Statue of Liberty, bank, and aim directly at him. It crashed 130 feet from his desk on Floor 81. Floors 78 through 84 were hit. Some 50 to 200 people are in the Sky Lobby on 78 trying to decide whether to evacuate via express elevators or to return to their desks via local elevators as the PA system suggests. Only 12 are believed to survive when the left wingtip crashes through this floor spewing jet fuel. Many died because they survived the crash and stayed to help others. Although flames spew down elevator shafts, fire is believed to have remained only on floors 78 through 84. Only 18 people below floor 78 are believed to have died (on Floor 73). 602 above floor 77 died.

For reasons unknown, 383 victims were from Aon Insurance on the 98th floor. It would have been higher had many employees all but pushed their collegues out before the second plane crash. But most Aon employees were trapped in Stairways at or above 105 futilely trying to exit via the roof. Among those in the trapped crowd were Aon's fire warden.

For some reason, two Euro Brokers employees, from floor 84 declared the stairs blocked and on fire below 81. Therefore they promoted a movement up towards the roof. Many of these people remained trapped inside the stairway since doors out of the stairway were jammed. Around floor 91, many simply lay down and went to sleep due to heat and smoke. One who saw this became so determined to live that the marched back down - and survived. About 200 people queued to exit via the roof door. One was a window washer who had keys, but the door was also locked by an electronic interlock controlled on floor 22.

Stairway A, which branched away from all other stairways and around express elevator machinery above the Sky Lobby, was the only intact stairway. Machinery is thought to have protected that stairway. An elevator had crashed into Stairway A at floor 76, but the wreakage was pushed aside by two men so that only 18 people would attempt and succeed escape. Apparently too many above had been provided erroneous information and never tried the only escape path.

WTC2 collapsed when fire on 82, within the impact zone, undermined the northeast corner girder where molten steel was seen dripping. WTC1 collapsed 28 minutes later when the center core failed, probably at 92, below the impact zone or slightly higher. Both buildings collapsed due to fire on exposed beams that we now know, as best we can, were insufficiently insulated to protect from fire.

juju · 05-30-2002, 03:24 AM

Very interesting reading. What sources did you use to gather all this information?

Anyway, I always thought a good solution would be rooms stocked with parachutes on each floor of the skyscraper.

While we're at it, we need parachutes on commercial airliners as well. I mean, is being at 35,000 feet without a parachute really very intelligent?

I wonder if one would be allowed as a carry on?

05-30-2002, 07:49 AM

Three words, juju: D. B. Cooper.

juju · 05-30-2002, 12:16 PM

Still, i'd just as soon have a way out of the plane, even if it could be abused by people. :]

05-30-2002, 12:22 PM

I more meant that there's no way in hell you're parachuting from a plane at 35,000 feet going 560+ miles per hour in any random condition while wearing your khakis and t-shirt and landing safely on the ground a little later.

juju · 05-30-2002, 12:48 PM

Oh. :)

tw · 05-30-2002, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by juju2112
Very interesting reading. What sources did you use to gather all this information?

Almost all information is from the NY Times five full pages of research published last Sunday 26 May 2002, starting at the top page, entitled "Fighting to Live as the Towers Die". It may also still be on their web site including interactive video. However much additional background information comes from other responsible sources including The Economist (Time Magazine is not responsible - just see their latest cover stories).

Those three PA employees - using information from different sources - one may be the former lead investigator into the terrorist attack in 1993. Forgot his name, but he recently was hired as head of security after a nonsense political fubar about a possible intelligence compromise.

Generations ago, parachuting from airplanes fell in total disrepute. Again basic knowledge. Even parachuting from a skyscraper requires advanced training. Better to not build buildings for emotional ego and instead use good engineering prudence.

Let me suggest just another simple disaster. Lets say someone hijacks a subway train, takes it under the East river, and blows up that tunnel. The resulting flood water would destroy the entire NYC subway system. I have personally identified many more disaster scenarios on this scale, in part, because I avoid all pathetic fiction such as Steve King. How often do we ask - what if - based upon real world background? That is what a responsible author like Tom Clancy does.

Keep in mind that terrorism is so easy. If we were really under the threat hyped by our leaders, then the WTC disaster would have been only one of many since the day the world changed - 1 Aug 1990. It is why we need leaders who don't use MBA philosophies and therefore empower the people in the field. It did not take a genius to see a possible WTC attack - as we now know. It is just that people, such as the FBIs own chief pilot, use the facts, experience, and question everything around them. It is why everyone should ask "why that car crashed and what could I do to avoid that human failure". It is why responsible people disparge Action News - and other local gossips like Oprah and Jerry Springer.

New York Times earned kudo on 26 May 2002 for doing what a responsible press does - facts we all can learn from.

downside · 05-30-2002, 02:43 PM

Many ideas have been passed around the US about how to make flying "terror proof". Granted this task is improbable but still, if we brush this off without trying tio improve flying standards, this could happen 1,000 times over.

Not that my ideas ever get heard, but I thought I would share one that has always been a thought in my mind.

I think the entrance to the cockpit shouldn't be accessible from inside the plane. There would be two doors to the plane, one for the cabin and the other for the cockpit. That way, the terrorists couldn't get into the cockpit and take over the flight. This would at least prevent the terrorists from flying the plane into a building or a target for that matter.

The planes, of course, would need to be revamped to allow a bathroom/kitchenette in the cockpit. But this idea isn't far fetched. Even their own air supply. Everything would be separate from the cabin.

Secondly, Hollywood has shown in movie after movie the effects of Cloraphil (mind the spelling). It's doused onto a cloth and the breather of this stuff instantly passes out. I say, along with the separate cockpit idea, the pilots should be able to hit a button that release the gas into the cabin, knocking out everyone. So now, you have two pilots, flying the plane, who cannot be reached. At the sign of danger (simple camera and monitor in the cockpit), the pilots press this button giving off a sleep gas. Then, they just fly to the nearest strip, land, and let the FBI take the sleeping terrorists away.

I'm sure this has already been thought of and dismissed for reasons I can't see. But if not, man that'd be great.

juju · 05-30-2002, 03:54 PM

Well, it'd probably be pretty difficult and expensive to retrofit all the current planes that way. It'd really only be viable for new planes that are being built -- which would work but wouldn't really be an immediate solution.

downside · 05-30-2002, 03:55 PM

Agreed. But with security like it is, we've got plenty of time. I'm simply saying that the government doesn't seem to be looking into solutions like this. Possibly because they cost too much money.

that's another ranting.

Griff · 05-30-2002, 08:29 PM

What if theres a cockpit emergency?

downside · 05-31-2002, 08:25 AM

Like what? A cockpit emergency in the Downside Plane would be the same as the planes we have now. A fire in my plane would be just as dangerous as a firein the planes now.

The gas may have been a little much, as it is most likely flamable and dangerous in large quantities. Still, the separate cockpit would ensure that no one could put a good to the head of the person flying the plane. That is the important part.

juju · 05-31-2002, 09:07 AM

Well, if both the pilots have heart attacks, then none of the passengers can fly the plane. :)

downside · 05-31-2002, 09:16 AM

The chance of both pilots having a heart attack at the same time- 1,000,000:1

The chance the two Flight Attendants with the pilots also have heart attacks at the same time the pilots do- 10,000,000:1

I'm going on chances here, just as the Transportation industry does. For instance, Car Makers still produce cars, even though there is a greater chance of it's one driver having a heart attack while driving.

So maybe your New Thread should be "How to create a plane that lands itself." Then, we can combine the two and get rich.

juju · 05-31-2002, 09:32 AM

Heheheh.

Well, okay. How about the chances that Al-Quaida poisons the pilots food before the plane even takes off?

05-29-2002, 12:16 AM	#1
tw Read? I only know how to write. Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 11,933	Survival Lessons to be learned from the Victims (long) The NY Times on 26 May 2002 collected a five page story on what people in the upper stories faced in their last 102 minutes. Those who live on ghoul need not bother reading. But for those who wish to learn and especially for those who want to be knowledgeable... welcome. Of 2400 people who died, about 1100 survived after aircraft crashed only to die, trapped, in the collapse. Why many did or did not survive is why we want to know these details. Unfortunately, little effort was provided by the 'powers that be' to learn from the rubble. Most evidence was destroyed with total disregard for facts. But we have these testimonies and video footage. It is known that at least 353 communicated out after the crash and before they died. What they saw is telling. First, the collisions caused major structural twisting in both towers as the buildings vibrated in a wave that was three or four seconds long. Within 20 minutes, many floors far from impact zones were buckling. Many fire exit doors were jammed tight. No tools existed within the building, such as crowbars or axes, to force open those doors. For example many people from the 83 through 86th floor were saved by unknown Port Authority employees from a lower floor who forced open stairway doors. Those PA employees died in their efforts to free the stairways. All stairways were filled with sheetrock, installed only 8 years previously, for fire protection but blown off the wall. Again, no tools were available to break through this destruction. The towers were constructed assuming certain things would happen. For example, sprinklers were expected to be working. Firemen were expected to be on scene within sufficient time (after 1 hour they had only gotten to the 50th floor). Fire insulation was expected to remain intact. At least some elevators were expected to be working. Reality was different. Each building with over 100 elevators only had three stairways all grouped together. Water for sprinklers, stairways, and elevators were concentrated in the same location meaning that nearly all became early victims. The first struck, WTC1 (North Tower) at floors 94 thru 98, is known to have two stairways completely blocked at the 92nd floor. Since stairway A was closer to the impact site and adjacent to blocked Stairway B, then it too is assumed to have been obstructed. Below that, only one stairway was clear enough to use. All but 84 victims below the 92nd Floor got out. Some victims were well below where no fire nor smoke existed such as Floors 68, 82, and 83 - for unknown reasons. But no one from 92 up survived. Carr Futures was on floor 92. Of 68 people, 30 were trapped in a conference room due to a jammed door. They never did get out. Jammed doors with no tools to open them were common throughout both buildings. About 40 others retreated to the far, unfinished end of floor 92. Before collapse, the entire 92nd floor was engulfed in fire. Fire is only known to have been on floors 88, 92 thru 99, and 104 although others could have been involved. But smoke and heat were the most serious problems. For example, people on floors 106 and 107, Windows on the World, were in trouble within 20 minutes. Even the floors were buckling and ceilings falling over while this was over 1 hour before the building would collapse. A WPIX-TV engineer on 110 had access to the roof but refused to leave his office due to smoke and heat. Generally, closer to top floors meant conditions deteriorated fastest. Smoke and heat was worst in floors above 100. Fires apparently traveled up elevator shafts and stairways, and may have spread onto other floors. We may never know since evidence was destroyed. Although some are known to have tried for the roof, no one succeed. Not that it made any difference. Helicopters could not land on either tower due to obstructions everywhere. Many people began evacuating WTC2 when the PA system told them they were safer in their offices. Stanley Paimnath of Fuji Bank had evacuated to the lobby but returned to his desk per those instructions. He was talking to Chicago when he spotted the plane fly past the Statue of Liberty, bank, and aim directly at him. It crashed 130 feet from his desk on Floor 81. Floors 78 through 84 were hit. Some 50 to 200 people are in the Sky Lobby on 78 trying to decide whether to evacuate via express elevators or to return to their desks via local elevators as the PA system suggests. Only 12 are believed to survive when the left wingtip crashes through this floor spewing jet fuel. Many died because they survived the crash and stayed to help others. Although flames spew down elevator shafts, fire is believed to have remained only on floors 78 through 84. Only 18 people below floor 78 are believed to have died (on Floor 73). 602 above floor 77 died. For reasons unknown, 383 victims were from Aon Insurance on the 98th floor. It would have been higher had many employees all but pushed their collegues out before the second plane crash. But most Aon employees were trapped in Stairways at or above 105 futilely trying to exit via the roof. Among those in the trapped crowd were Aon's fire warden. For some reason, two Euro Brokers employees, from floor 84 declared the stairs blocked and on fire below 81. Therefore they promoted a movement up towards the roof. Many of these people remained trapped inside the stairway since doors out of the stairway were jammed. Around floor 91, many simply lay down and went to sleep due to heat and smoke. One who saw this became so determined to live that the marched back down - and survived. About 200 people queued to exit via the roof door. One was a window washer who had keys, but the door was also locked by an electronic interlock controlled on floor 22. Stairway A, which branched away from all other stairways and around express elevator machinery above the Sky Lobby, was the only intact stairway. Machinery is thought to have protected that stairway. An elevator had crashed into Stairway A at floor 76, but the wreakage was pushed aside by two men so that only 18 people would attempt and succeed escape. Apparently too many above had been provided erroneous information and never tried the only escape path. WTC2 collapsed when fire on 82, within the impact zone, undermined the northeast corner girder where molten steel was seen dripping. WTC1 collapsed 28 minutes later when the center core failed, probably at 92, below the impact zone or slightly higher. Both buildings collapsed due to fire on exposed beams that we now know, as best we can, were insufficiently insulated to protect from fire. Last edited by tw; 05-29-2002 at 12:38 AM.

05-30-2002, 08:29 PM	#11
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	What if theres a cockpit emergency? __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

05-30-2002, 03:24 AM	#2
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Very interesting reading. What sources did you use to gather all this information? Anyway, I always thought a good solution would be rooms stocked with parachutes on each floor of the skyscraper. While we're at it, we need parachutes on commercial airliners as well. I mean, is being at 35,000 feet without a parachute really very intelligent? I wonder if one would be allowed as a carry on?

05-30-2002, 07:49 AM	#3
dave Guest Posts: n/a	Three words, juju: D. B. Cooper.

05-30-2002, 12:16 PM	#4
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Still, i'd just as soon have a way out of the plane, even if it could be abused by people. :]

05-30-2002, 12:22 PM	#5
dave Guest Posts: n/a	I more meant that there's no way in hell you're parachuting from a plane at 35,000 feet going 560+ miles per hour in any random condition while wearing your khakis and t-shirt and landing safely on the ground a little later.

05-30-2002, 12:48 PM	#6
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Oh. :)

05-30-2002, 02:43 PM	#8
downside a shadow in the dark... Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 44	Many ideas have been passed around the US about how to make flying "terror proof". Granted this task is improbable but still, if we brush this off without trying tio improve flying standards, this could happen 1,000 times over. Not that my ideas ever get heard, but I thought I would share one that has always been a thought in my mind. I think the entrance to the cockpit shouldn't be accessible from inside the plane. There would be two doors to the plane, one for the cabin and the other for the cockpit. That way, the terrorists couldn't get into the cockpit and take over the flight. This would at least prevent the terrorists from flying the plane into a building or a target for that matter. The planes, of course, would need to be revamped to allow a bathroom/kitchenette in the cockpit. But this idea isn't far fetched. Even their own air supply. Everything would be separate from the cabin. Secondly, Hollywood has shown in movie after movie the effects of Cloraphil (mind the spelling). It's doused onto a cloth and the breather of this stuff instantly passes out. I say, along with the separate cockpit idea, the pilots should be able to hit a button that release the gas into the cabin, knocking out everyone. So now, you have two pilots, flying the plane, who cannot be reached. At the sign of danger (simple camera and monitor in the cockpit), the pilots press this button giving off a sleep gas. Then, they just fly to the nearest strip, land, and let the FBI take the sleeping terrorists away. I'm sure this has already been thought of and dismissed for reasons I can't see. But if not, man that'd be great.

05-30-2002, 03:54 PM	#9
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Well, it'd probably be pretty difficult and expensive to retrofit all the current planes that way. It'd really only be viable for new planes that are being built -- which would work but wouldn't really be an immediate solution.

05-30-2002, 03:55 PM	#10
downside a shadow in the dark... Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 44	Agreed. But with security like it is, we've got plenty of time. I'm simply saying that the government doesn't seem to be looking into solutions like this. Possibly because they cost too much money. that's another ranting.

05-31-2002, 08:25 AM	#12
downside a shadow in the dark... Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 44	Like what? A cockpit emergency in the Downside Plane would be the same as the planes we have now. A fire in my plane would be just as dangerous as a firein the planes now. The gas may have been a little much, as it is most likely flamable and dangerous in large quantities. Still, the separate cockpit would ensure that no one could put a good to the head of the person flying the plane. That is the important part.

05-31-2002, 09:07 AM	#13
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Well, if both the pilots have heart attacks, then none of the passengers can fly the plane. :)

05-31-2002, 09:16 AM	#14
downside a shadow in the dark... Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 44	The chance of both pilots having a heart attack at the same time- 1,000,000:1 The chance the two Flight Attendants with the pilots also have heart attacks at the same time the pilots do- 10,000,000:1 I'm going on chances here, just as the Transportation industry does. For instance, Car Makers still produce cars, even though there is a greater chance of it's one driver having a heart attack while driving. So maybe your New Thread should be "How to create a plane that lands itself." Then, we can combine the two and get rich.

05-31-2002, 09:32 AM	#15
juju no one of consequence Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Arkansas Posts: 2,839	Heheheh. Well, okay. How about the chances that Al-Quaida poisons the pilots food before the plane even takes off?

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