Multiculturalism gone awry

Undertoad · 08-20-2002, 11:51 AM

http://www.nationalpost.com/commenta...E3043DCA11D%7D

The above article from Canada's National Post explains how multiculturalism in Europe and Australia increasingly means respecting immigrants' attitudes towards things like rape and murder. According to a Norwegian professor, 65% of rapes in Norway are committed by Muslim immigrants, coming from societies where rape considered is the woman's fault.

So Muslim immigrants to Norway should be made aware that things are a little different in Scandinavia? Not at all! Rather, the professor insisted, "Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes" because their manner of dress would be regarded by Muslim men as inappropriate. "Norwegian women must realize that we live in a multicultural society and adapt themselves to it." Or to modify Queen Victoria's wedding-night advice to her daughter: Lie back and think of Yemen.

The Nat'l Post author then extends the rape analogy, as multiculturalists sometimes say America was "asking for it" and got its just due on 9/11.

For years conservatives have been saying that multiculturalism is an abomination because it leads to lack of moral clarity. I've always thought "whose morals?" but it would appear that even the worst-case "conservative family values" might be a better choice, in the long run, than the confusion that comes up with justifcations of rape and murder.

Griff · 08-20-2002, 12:43 PM

But, inevitably, it's the heavy sentence that's "controversial." After September 11th, Americans were advised to ask themselves, "Why do they hate us?" Now Australians need to ask themselves, "Why do they rape us?"

Its an interesting premise, but I don't think I buy it. Depending on your view the WTC event was either driven by Bin Ladens megalomania, simple retaliation for America using the mid-east as our playground, or some combination of those and other cultural factors. Whatever the reason, it was a highly symbolic, though horrifyingly real, event stemming from events outside our borders. The rape of individual Australian women is more likely a reaction to life inside Australia. If you can't respect Western values and norms you shouldn't be living in the West (not geographical). To me, the next logical question is should we be mucking around in mid East countries whose values disgust us?

jaguar · 08-20-2002, 06:29 PM

Yea that rape case has been whipping up an absolute shitstorm here.

Quote:

The Nat'l Post author then extends the rape analogy, as multiculturalists sometimes say America was "asking for it" and got its just due on 9/11.

I cannot agree with the extension of that one. There are some pretty huge differences which are fundamental. As far as the long sentance goes, good riddance, pity its not longer. I go to one of the most multicultural schools in the state, which is also extremely tolelrant but anyone that thinks they can use religion or culture to justify such disgusting acts deserves to spend life behind bars.

I'll walk a thin line on this one but while there is always a minorty of every etnicity that cause problems, whites included obviously i've always had the most trouble with lebs.

Griff · 08-21-2002, 07:19 AM

Jag, Can you expand on that a bit? What expessions of cultural difference are acceptable on your campus and what expressions are not acceptable? It may seem obvious to you but I can assure you its not.

Have we been exposed to different generations and classes of Lebanese? I don't have any Lebenese in my circle of friends but its been my impression that as a group they were serious businessmen and familymen. I can see where those who got out before or around 1982 ( if thats the right year for the collapse?) would be different people than those that stayed behind. I guess though that you are in school with the children of the immigrants so maybe its like our local Vietnamese community, driven parents whose kids lack the support of a community culture and end up populating the gangs despite their economic position?

vsp · 08-21-2002, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Undertoad
The above article from Canada's National Post explains how multiculturalism in Europe and Australia increasingly means respecting immigrants' attitudes towards things like rape and murder. According to a Norwegian professor, 65% of rapes in Norway are committed by Muslim immigrants, coming from societies where rape considered is the woman's fault.

So Muslim immigrants to Norway should be made aware that things are a little different in Scandinavia? Not at all! Rather, the professor insisted, "Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes" because their manner of dress would be regarded by Muslim men as inappropriate. "Norwegian women must realize that we live in a multicultural society and adapt themselves to it." Or to modify Queen Victoria's wedding-night advice to her daughter: Lie back and think of Yemen.

This isn't a major black eye for multiculturalism -- it's a rant by a Norwegian professor who's thoroughly and gloriously full of shit.

This is the defense from "The Accused" all over again; "She dressed like a slut, so she was inviting sexual activity and it couldn't have been rape." Bollocks. A Muslim male has every right to consider a scantily-dressed Norwegian woman "inappropriate," "a slut," "blasphemous" or any other pejorative that comes to his mind; where his rights end are when he _acts_ on those beliefs in a way that's in violation of the laws of his country. It's the MUSLIM in this case who needs to "realize that he lives in a multicultural society and adapt to it," if his beliefs are that much out of whack with community standards. Is he entitled to his beliefs? Of course. Should he be allowed to verbally lecture Norwegian women about their attire or lifestyles? Sure, if they'll listen. But his rights end where someone else's body begins.

In my Utopia, public morality and behavioral ethics would be summed up by a simple saying: An it harm no one, do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law. Or as the late great Frank Zappa sang it more eloquently:

"Do as you wanna / Do as you will / Just don't mess up your neighbor's thrill / And when you pay the bill / Kindly leave a little tip / To help the next poor sucker on his one way trip."

The DO WHAT YOU WILL part is important; the AS LONG AS YOU DON'T HARM ANYONE ELSE part is even more important. There's plenty of room for different customs and beliefs, but the law still applies.

spinningfetus · 08-23-2002, 12:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Griff
I guess though that you are in school with the children of the immigrants so maybe its like our local Vietnamese community, driven parents whose kids lack the support of a community culture and end up populating the gangs despite their economic position?

Are you talking about FOB? Those kids are punks. I saw a car load of them run down this dude outside of where I worked. Just another reason Binghamton sucks...

Griff · 08-23-2002, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by spinningfetus

Are you talking about FOB? Those kids are punks. I saw a car load of them run down this dude outside of where I worked. Just another reason Binghamton sucks...

I'm not sure what you mean by FOB (gang?) but yah I was thinking of Binghamton. I shouldn't over-generalize though, I worked with the guy that owns that Viet resturaunt in JC and his kids seemed squared away.

jaguar · 08-23-2002, 06:47 AM

Sorry I lost this thread for a bit.

Quote:

Jag, Can you expand on that a bit? What expressions of cultural difference are acceptable on your campus and what expressions are not acceptable? It may seem obvious to you but I can assure you its not.

Its taken for granted, we don't hide it, we joke about it. Wander round our corridors "dodgy Asian" "curry"(Indian) "skips"(Anglo) "honkey" (Hong Kong) you'll hear plenty of what would otherwise be considered serious racial slurs used the same way blacks use "nigger". Plenty of jokes and jibes, particularly about AzN culture. Occasionally you'll hear a serious insult, which sounds pretty similar, apart from the tone of voice and the situation, and usually results in something messy. it is good though that we can (in general) accept and embrace our different cultures and intermix so openly, I think the above-average (in theory anyway

intelligence in our school helps too.

Lebanese...
partially it is simply the whole disenfranchised gang culture thing but there just seems to be more of it. I mean I’m going out on a limb but I know Viet, Cambodian, Chinese, honky gangsta types, but I also know just normal kids and quiet types that want to do accounting. I've never come across a leb that wasn’t out to cause trouble. I'm sure that due to limited exposure but the fact there is not *one* I can think of in our school is telling. Very telling. I was not surprised when it came out the rapists were Lebanese either, they cause endless trouble in clubs.

Man I sound racialist don't I.

I said it before and I’ll say it again, I live in an extremely multicultural society, I love that fact it creates a magnificent spirit of diversity which truly does rock but these asshats deserve that 55 years, hell, they deserve more. I don’t believe they believe that excuse themselves, I think they are a bunch of dirty rapists looking for a pissweak excuse to justify their disgusting actions, smug little prats deserved to be locked up and throw away the key.
I agree with VSP. That Norwegian idiot is missing part of the point. For multiculturalism to work there must be a degree of open interaction between cultures. One thing many people would disagree with me on is immigrants who refuse to learn the local language then expect special services, tough bloody luck, you live here, learn the language.

Enough ranting now. For reference I completely support the rights of immigrants and refugees.

Lt · 08-23-2002, 05:05 PM

When in Rome...

I'm an immigrant myself. When I was in Greece I lived, as far as was reasonable for an outsider, according to local customs. Those customs I didn't like/agree with I respected as being part of my hosts' culture and accepted.

In the US I'm the same, though admittedly American social and moral values are very similar to the British.

One thing I don't do as an immigrant is go around demanding this right or that consideration because I'm different. It's wrong to expect special treatment in someone else's country. I'm happy just to be welcomed in someone else's country and shown a little common courtesy.

If you make a choice to live somewhere other than your country of birth, you should be prepared to adapt and not try to impose your own culture on your host. If you want to live by your own customs and culture, why the hell did you move away from your own country?

Does this make me a racist? I don't know, ask my Greek, African, Spanish or Asian friends. I've voiced the same opinions to them and they agree to most of it in principle.

To anyone who is thinking of emigrating: if you have a custom you would like to observe in your new home and it impinges on locally accepted practices ASK don't DEMAND. That way you will avoid breeding resentment towards yourself a those who might follow you.

Just my 0.02.

headsplice · 08-28-2002, 11:45 AM

Let's face it, we have converging cultures. As much as McDonalds would like us to live in McWorld, we don't. Not by a long shot. Go to the Phillipines and take a look around and you'll know what I'm talking about (and they were one of our 'colonies').
Until we do have McWorld *shudder* the clashes resulting from displacement and interaction will only increase. The question then becomes one of dealing with the after effects of two societies that are diametrically opposed on some issues (rape, for example).
There is the relativistic example that this Norwegian squeaker proposes. "Well, they're good kids, they follow the rules that they know. So, I declare a verdict of Boys will be Boys."
Likewise, we could simply say that other (non-Western) cultures are completely bunk and they don't have any say in the way that the world works.
Both are wrong.
Respecting the institutions of another culture is one thing. Allowing said institutions to get away with the abuse of individuals is another. The UN is trying (without the help of the US, might I add) to pass the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This is one solution that I really respect. It says essentially that you can have all the institutions that you want, and that's fine, but, your citizens have basic rights that are verboten. You don't get to violate those rights. Period.
If the "Third Word" wants to come and play in the Big Leagues with the adults, they have to learn the rules. Not raping women is one of those rules.

08-20-2002, 11:51 AM	#1
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Multiculturalism gone awry http://www.nationalpost.com/commenta...E3043DCA11D%7D The above article from Canada's National Post explains how multiculturalism in Europe and Australia increasingly means respecting immigrants' attitudes towards things like rape and murder. According to a Norwegian professor, 65% of rapes in Norway are committed by Muslim immigrants, coming from societies where rape considered is the woman's fault. So Muslim immigrants to Norway should be made aware that things are a little different in Scandinavia? Not at all! Rather, the professor insisted, "Norwegian women must take their share of responsibility for these rapes" because their manner of dress would be regarded by Muslim men as inappropriate. "Norwegian women must realize that we live in a multicultural society and adapt themselves to it." Or to modify Queen Victoria's wedding-night advice to her daughter: Lie back and think of Yemen. The Nat'l Post author then extends the rape analogy, as multiculturalists sometimes say America was "asking for it" and got its just due on 9/11. For years conservatives have been saying that multiculturalism is an abomination because it leads to lack of moral clarity. I've always thought "whose morals?" but it would appear that even the worst-case "conservative family values" might be a better choice, in the long run, than the confusion that comes up with justifcations of rape and murder.

08-20-2002, 12:43 PM	#2
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	But, inevitably, it's the heavy sentence that's "controversial." After September 11th, Americans were advised to ask themselves, "Why do they hate us?" Now Australians need to ask themselves, "Why do they rape us?" Its an interesting premise, but I don't think I buy it. Depending on your view the WTC event was either driven by Bin Ladens megalomania, simple retaliation for America using the mid-east as our playground, or some combination of those and other cultural factors. Whatever the reason, it was a highly symbolic, though horrifyingly real, event stemming from events outside our borders. The rape of individual Australian women is more likely a reaction to life inside Australia. If you can't respect Western values and norms you shouldn't be living in the West (not geographical). To me, the next logical question is should we be mucking around in mid East countries whose values disgust us? __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

08-21-2002, 07:19 AM	#4
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Jag, Can you expand on that a bit? What expessions of cultural difference are acceptable on your campus and what expressions are not acceptable? It may seem obvious to you but I can assure you its not. Have we been exposed to different generations and classes of Lebanese? I don't have any Lebenese in my circle of friends but its been my impression that as a group they were serious businessmen and familymen. I can see where those who got out before or around 1982 ( if thats the right year for the collapse?) would be different people than those that stayed behind. I guess though that you are in school with the children of the immigrants so maybe its like our local Vietnamese community, driven parents whose kids lack the support of a community culture and end up populating the gangs despite their economic position? __________________ If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you. - Louis D. Brandeis

08-28-2002, 11:45 AM	#10
headsplice Relaxed Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 676	damn you people are eloquent Let's face it, we have converging cultures. As much as McDonalds would like us to live in McWorld, we don't. Not by a long shot. Go to the Phillipines and take a look around and you'll know what I'm talking about (and they were one of our 'colonies'). Until we do have McWorld shudder the clashes resulting from displacement and interaction will only increase. The question then becomes one of dealing with the after effects of two societies that are diametrically opposed on some issues (rape, for example). There is the relativistic example that this Norwegian squeaker proposes. "Well, they're good kids, they follow the rules that they know. So, I declare a verdict of Boys will be Boys." Likewise, we could simply say that other (non-Western) cultures are completely bunk and they don't have any say in the way that the world works. Both are wrong. Respecting the institutions of another culture is one thing. Allowing said institutions to get away with the abuse of individuals is another. The UN is trying (without the help of the US, might I add) to pass the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. This is one solution that I really respect. It says essentially that you can have all the institutions that you want, and that's fine, but, your citizens have basic rights that are verboten. You don't get to violate those rights. Period. If the "Third Word" wants to come and play in the Big Leagues with the adults, they have to learn the rules. Not raping women is one of those rules. __________________ Don't Panic

08-23-2002, 05:05 PM	#9
Lt Fresh Incumbent Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Fla Posts: 28	When in Rome... I'm an immigrant myself. When I was in Greece I lived, as far as was reasonable for an outsider, according to local customs. Those customs I didn't like/agree with I respected as being part of my hosts' culture and accepted. In the US I'm the same, though admittedly American social and moral values are very similar to the British. One thing I don't do as an immigrant is go around demanding this right or that consideration because I'm different. It's wrong to expect special treatment in someone else's country. I'm happy just to be welcomed in someone else's country and shown a little common courtesy. If you make a choice to live somewhere other than your country of birth, you should be prepared to adapt and not try to impose your own culture on your host. If you want to live by your own customs and culture, why the hell did you move away from your own country? Does this make me a racist? I don't know, ask my Greek, African, Spanish or Asian friends. I've voiced the same opinions to them and they agree to most of it in principle. To anyone who is thinking of emigrating: if you have a custom you would like to observe in your new home and it impinges on locally accepted practices ASK don't DEMAND. That way you will avoid breeding resentment towards yourself a those who might follow you. Just my 0.02.

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