This is what war is all about

[Nothing But Net]

<img src="http://images.chron.com/content/news/photos/02/04/04/mideastfront.jpg">

An Israeli soldier passes a vehicle that was pancaked by a tank as he patrols a street in Bethlehem on Wednesday. More than 100 Palestinians are hiding inside the Church of the Nativity, right, seeking refuge from Israeli troops who invaded the West Bank town.

I wish them damn Jews and A-rabs would take their feudin' somwhar' else, 'stead of the birthplace of our Lord!

[Nic Name]

... who was a Jew, of course.

[russotto]

Actually, a new analysis of the available evidence has revealed that Jesu ben Joseph was not born in Bethlehem, as was previously though. He was in fact born in Cleveland.

He then moved to Mercer, PA, where he changed his name to Michael Trent Reznor.

[mlandman]

Leave the computer geeks out of it.

By my definition, nobody who creates music solely on a computer can be called a musician. Or at least a good one, dammit.

Great. You chimed in with that <i>why</i>?

[mlandman]

Holy bananas! Somebody questioning the rationale of some of the responses here at the Cellar?

Originally posted by mlandman
Leave the computer geeks out of it.

By my definition, nobody who creates music solely on a computer can be called a musician. Or at least a good one, dammit.

I just find it curious that you said that after I mentioned Michael Trent Reznor.

[mlandman]

Nine Inch Nails is one guy on a computer and keyboard and drum machine, even though he makes a good attempt at dispelling this image by bringing out people with guitars at his "live shows", and also giving them credit on liner notes of his albums. Computer generated music 100%.

Clearly a very creative person. However, being a musician, I'm not fond of people who lay their claim to fame by:

Launching into the main stream via a cover song
Use drum machines and computers to mimic real instruments
etc. etc.

Yes, part of it is probably jealousy.

-mike

Originally posted by mlandman
Nine Inch Nails is one guy on a computer and keyboard and drum machine, even though he makes a good attempt at dispelling this image by bringing out people with guitars at his "live shows", and also giving them credit on liner notes of his albums. Computer generated music 100%.

I thought that might be what you were getting at, and since you've now said it, allow me to say this:

That comment reeks of ignorance.

No offense, and I hope none taken. But you are, quite frankly, wrong.

Let me clarify a bit.

Back in 1988, Nine Inch Nails was one Trent Reznor with drummer Chris Vrenna and guitarist Richard Patrick (of Filter) as backup. Chris Vrenna played real drums. Richard Patrick played real guitar. Incidentally, so did Trent. This is Pretty Hate Machine era Nine Inch Nails.

Broken era Nine Inch Nails is mainly Trent. Drum machines were used but the guitar is still real.

Downward Spiral era Nine Inch Nails consisted mostly of Trent Reznor again, but help is enlisted from Adrian Belew and Chris Vrenna. Danny Lohner also makes his first appearance on The Downward Spiral. Drums and guitars are, for the most part, real.

Fragile era Nine Inch Nails is where things really start to change. Trent Reznor, being "the man" behind Nine Inch Nails, retains absolute control over everything that is produced, but he lets other people play. Jerome Dillon takes Chris Vrenna's place on drums after a schism between Vrenna and Reznor and later becomes involved with the guitar. Danny Lohner picks up bass and guitar. Charlie Clouser does a lot of the keyboards and post-processing. This is the most "real" album to date - it is more guitar and less machine. It is real music.

Now. The music is indeed post-processed in computers. Changes are made. Music is tweaked. It is distorted. It may sound completely different when you hear it than it did when it was recorded. It is true that computers are used. But it is insulting to the hard work of the musicians involved in the creations of Nine Inch Nails seventeen "halos" to call their art "computer generated". It is computer enhanced, yes. But most of it is generated the good old-fashioned way - with a pick and a guitar and a set of drums.

It is <b>not</b> "computer generated music 100%". That statement is based upon your ignorance of the way Nine Inch Nails creates their music.

Launching into the main stream via a cover song

I'm curious as to why you mention this in a discussion about Nine Inch Nails. While Trent has done covers of Soft Cell and Adam Ant (to name a couple), his launch into the mainstream was "Head Like A Hole", which was written and performed entirely by Nine Inch Nails.

Leave the computer geeks out of it.

The fact of the matter is that computers afford you an opportunity to enhance your music. If you don't like it, that's fine - don't use it. I'm sure your music is just swell without it. But don't dog people that do. Simply put, you're no better than they are. Your elitism, in calling their music fake (in so many words) and dubbing them "computer geeks" is not going to get you anywhere and, in truth, it makes you look like an ignorant asshole. Who are you to say whether or not someone can make music that way? Guitars were new once too. I'm sure "traditional" musicians at the time thought lowly of them too. Now they're a part of what I'm sure you would consider "real" music. Consider this: All new truths begin as heresy.

When we get down to it, what's great about music is that the artist was able to take something that was in their head and make it enjoyable for others. It's not a guitar or a drum or a computer or a box filled with rice (as was used by Nine Inch Nails on "Pilgrimage", track 9 on the Left side of The Fragile) - music is in your head. It doesn't matter how you realize the effort of making it audible to others - what matters is that you succeeded in doing so.

[Undertoad]

I would doubt that any major label record today is recorded without the assistance of the computer.

For better or worse. It's because digital editing is so much more powerful.

[mlandman]

re: becoming well known due to a cover song, no I was not referring to NIN, merely a stray rant.

re: NIN and computer usage, many people feel strongly about the presence of "computer generated music", I'll include a couple of links, especially ones that relate specifically to NIN. And while Trent can pick up a guitar and claim contributions in the liner notes, and a fan based soliluqy (man I KNOW I spelled that one wrong) might hint otherwise, NIN is VERY MUCH majority computer based, not real drums, not real guitars. You are correct in that "100% computer generated" is a stretch, apologies.

http://www.uta.edu/english/dab/music/vone.html
http://www.nudeasthenews.com/section...060100aae.html

-mike

[Nic Name]

Musical seque back to thread topic

Originally posted by mlandman
not real drums, not real guitars.

Look, I don't know how to word this other than to say that you are very much wrong. I have broken down how each album was put together and who played the instruments. What more would you like? Do you need to see a home video of Trent and Jerome Dillon recording the new mix of "The Becoming" - Jerome on guitar and Trent singing? Do you need me to get us a sit-in at Nothing in New Orleans so you can watch them work?

I don't care what you <b>think</b> you know. I <b>know</b>, for a fact, no doubt whatsoever, would bet the rent on it, that <b>real guitars AND real computers</b> were used together to create "The Fragile". I don't care what a sorely negative review of the album says (which, by the way, is based on the writer's opinion of the album and not on fact at all - I'm not sure why you linked it, because it doesn't back up your point).

What is it going to take for you to drop your grudge and accept the fact that Trent and company use real instruments, in addition to computers, to make their music?

[Griff]

Heh heh, sorry Nic this thread is gone, solid gone.