You don't know shit about Iraq

[jaguar]

Since I'm already waving the flamethrower around with abandon today:
From the daily kos
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Its about time that I sat down and told you this. I was hoping it wouldn't have to be me, but someone needed to finally do it. For quite some time now, you have been going off about what we "need" to do in Iraq. You have been telling us how "things are going" over there, and making suggestions and proclamations about what "we need to do" based on what you seem to believe is a wealth of knowledge about the situation.

Well, I'm here to finally tell you what you what no one else seems willing to say: you don't know shit about Iraq. In fact, you don't even know how much shit there is about Iraq that you don't know.

For starters, you don't speak Arabic. In fact, there's a pretty good chance you don't even know someone who speaks Arabic. Further, you probably don't even know what percentage of Iraqis speak Arabic. I know for damn certain that you don't speak Kurdish.

Second, you have never been to Iraq. You may have seen a few maps on TV, but you have never actually been there. There is even a reasonable chance that you could not identify Iraq on a blank map. Almost certainly you do not know which countries border Iraq, without looking at a map. Its very likely you have never met anyone from Iraq, even if you have seen a few on TV.

Third, you probably know fuck all about Islam. You don't know what the word means in Arabic. You don't know the difference between Sunni and Shiite Islam. You don't know which type of Islam is more common in the region or in the world. you don't known when Ramadan is. You don't know when Muslims pray. You don't know where Mecca and Medina are. you don't know why those two cities are so important in the religion. You don't know when Mohammad lived. You have never read the Koran. You probably have even read part of it. You don't know what is forbidden by Islam, or what is permitted. You have maybe one Muslim friend.

Fourth, you have no clue about the history of the region. You have never heard of the Ottoman empire. You don't know about regional politics and the nineteenth century. You don't know what the British did in Iraq. You don't know about WWI in the region. You don't know when Iraq became independent. You don't know when Saddam Hussein took power. Even though you were alive the entire time, you don't know when the Iran-Iraq war took place. Before the war started, you only knew the same of one city in Iraq--Baghdad.

Fifth, you have no fucking idea what our military capability actually is. you couldn't even guess within 300,000 troops how many are available for active duty. You have no idea how many are deployed in different parts of the world. You don't know the location of more than three military bases. You don't know what type of weaponry, armor and vehicle the military currently uses. You don't even know the order of ranks among enlisted men in the Marines. Hell, you don't know if the Marines are part of the Army or if they are a separate branch of the armed services. You don't know what the military budget is. You don't know what congressional committees oversee military activities. You don't know how long a standard tour of duty lasts. You don't know the demographic composition of the armed forces.

Sixth, you don't know anything about the so-called "Iraqi resistance." You don't know what their motives are. You don't know what their goals are. you don't know how many of them there are. You don't know what groups they are affiliated with. You don't know how many are native Iraqis, how many are not from Iraq, or how many used to be part of Saddam's regime. You don't know what kind of tactics they use. You don't know how much public support they have. You don't know if they are one group or several groups. You don't know their political or religious beliefs. You don't know if they are losing strength or gaining strength.

Seventh, you don't have the slightest clue about the structure of Al-Qaeda and other terrorist groups. You don't know where they operate from. You don't know where their funding comes from. You don't know their plans. You don't know their strengths or weaknesses. You don't know which organizations operate out of which countries. you don't know what their goals are. You don't know where they draw their recruits from. You don't know how many people hate them and how many people sympathize with them. You don't know what connections they have with each other or with current regimes. You don't know how these organizations are run, or if there are factional splits within them. You don't know the names of more than three of their leaders. You probably could not even write a definition of the word "terrorist."

Eighth, you probably have never been a civilian in a war zone. You saw the attacks of 9/11 on television, but you probably didn't experience them, or know anyone who did. Your town has probably never been bombed or invaded. You have never seen your country overthrown in a violent coup. You have probably never lived under a dictatorship. You almost certainly do not know what its like to face jail simply for speaking up for your beliefs.

Ninth, you know absolutely nothing about Iraqi public opinion. You don't know what people over there are thinking. You don't know what people are thinking in different regions of the country. You don't know what they would like to see in a government. You have no idea what their idea of justice and democracy is. You may have heard a snippet of a poll or two, but since you don't know how those polls were conducted, what the methodology is, and how scientific such a poll is in relation to other polls, you really have no fucking clue what even the so called "general" sentiment is. you don't know how many Iraqis welcome the presence of U. S. troops. You don't know how many Iraqis wish U.S. troops harm. You don't know what people there are thinking, and you probably never will.

Tenth, you almost certainly do not know what its like to face combat. There is a decent chance that you know someone how is facing combat, but you can't understand what they are going through.

Eleventh, what little you do know, or what little you think you know, comes entirely from the mass media. You might question the way the media presents its stories, but you make no real effort to find information from other sources. Hell, you don't even follow the events in the mass media that closely. Maybe a couple of times a week you will actually watch the news all the way through. You know more about "Friends" or the "American Idol," than you know bout recent events in Iraq. You certainly have never actually watched or read anything from Al-Jazeera, even though you often deride the way it covers the news.

Twelfth, you can't possibly have the slightest idea how things in Iraq will change as time progresses. No one knows that. you can not see into the future. You don't know how it all will end. You don't know what will happen next.

Thirteenth, you know jackshit about the United Nations and international diplomacy. You don't know which countries are in the "Arab League." You can't name even half of the members of the U.N. security council. You don't know when the U.N. was founded, and you have never read the U.N. charter. you don't know where U.N. troops are currently deployed. You don't know the budget of the U.N., and you don't know where that money comes from. You don't understand U.N. voting procedures. Maybe, just maybe you know what city the U.N. headquarters are in. you certainly don't know all the members of NATO, the EU, or the "non-aligned" movement.

Fourteenth, you definitely do not know "what the world thinks about the U. S." You do not have a clear understanding of the opinion of the U.S. in very many, if any, countries of the world. Hell, you probably don't even know the names of more than six heads of state throughout the world, much less what they think of the U.S. You don't even know why other countries think certain things about us. You may have a guess, but let me tell you right now, that guess is probably way off.

Fifteenth, you don't know crap about economics. you don't know how the federal reserve system works. you don't know how OPEC works. You don't know how the unemployment rate is defined. You don't understand currency or gold markets. There is absolutely no way you understand you these structures are connected to the building of a functioning nation-state. Trade agreements? Please. you have never read one in your entire life.

Sixteenth, even though you always talk about Democracy, I bet you couldn't even define what you mean by that. Go ahead and try. Define it in three sentences or less. Now, try to explain how that was achieved in this country. Goooood luck.

Seventeenth, if you actually managed to come up with something about what you mean by Democracy and how it was achieved in America, try to come up with a way that "we" can go about accomplishing the same thing in Iraq in just a matter of a year or two, if ever. When making this calculation, don't forget to take into account of the things I have pointed out to you that you don't know.

I'm only saying this so that you will stop pretending that you know the solution to "the situation in Iraq." You don't have a clue. Even if you did know all of the things I listed, you still would only have a cursory understanding of how to help "the situation." Even then, the best you could do was offer a semi-demi-psuedo educated guess about the best course of action that would be rife with sweeping generalizations and the lacking in significant evidence. Even then, you might as well use a dartboard.

[jaguar]

However, you don't even have close to that cursory understanding of what is taking place, and neither do I. Just about the only thing you and I can know for certain is that over 800 coalition troops have lost their lives in Iraq, and over 10,000 Iraqi civilians have also died. These numbers can be proven. Not much else can be.

Considering all of this, I would appreciate it if you stopped telling everyone what should be done over there. You don't know what needs to be done, and I don't either. This is something you need to remember in the future whenever another one of our "elected" officials tells us that a nation that has not attacked us is a "threat to our security" and that we need to engage in "regime change" to fix the situation. When they say this, tell them bullshit. when they say it will be a clean and easy procress, tell them bull fucking shit. Please remember how messed up things are in reality, no matter how they sound in a neatly prepared speech. Please remember how little you actually know about these situations, and beg "our leaders" to remember the same thing about themselves, because the last thing we need is to get into another situation like this that no one knows how to fix.
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Stupid Post length limit.

[elSicomoro]

Jag, I want you to step away from the computer. I also want you to set down the coffee and cigarettes...no...put 'em down!

[richlevy]

Right on! The first step to wisdom is coming to grips with one's ignorance. My only question was who was this post directed at the man in the White House or some generic man on the street?

[SteveDallas]

It doesn't matter, rich. I was just gonna say, this is 100% true. Unfortunately that means nobody knows.

Unless everybody knows??

[Undertoad]

I'm sure that Kos does not mean to imply that nobody knows. I'm sure he means to say that it's just people like me and you who should STFU.

What I took from it was re-reading it with the media in mind. What do the people know who are telling us what's happening?

[SteveDallas]

Originally posted by Undertoad
I'm sure that Kos does not mean to imply that nobody knows. I'm sure he means to say that it's just people like me and you who should STFU.

Well even so, it raises the very legitimate question, who DOES know?

[lumberjim]

we could ask jeeves?

I bet GOD knows. let's ask Him!

c'mon, slang

[jaguar]

Very few people indeed.

[Catwoman]

No one knows the future but if we could step a little closer to understanding the past it may help clarify the present. GWB has no idea why Al-Qaeda (et al) exists, or that it may (gasp) have something to do with Amercian oppression: the 'we-think-we're-kings-of-the-universe-and-if-you-don't-give-us-what-we-want-we'll-take-it-anyway' philosophy that has led to the deaths of so many men. And women. And children. For gods sake when will it stop. Will no one ever act on the irony that the American public (at least those I have spoken to here) have far, far more intelligence than the man running their country?

Takes a deep breath and goes for a beer.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by Catwoman
No one knows the future but if we could step a little closer to understanding the past it may help clarify the present. GWB has no idea why Al-Qaeda (et al) exists, or that it may (gasp) have something to do with Amercian oppression: the 'we-think-we're-kings-of-the-universe-and-if-you-don't-give-us-what-we-want-we'll-take-it-anyway' philosophy that has led to the deaths of so many men. And women. And children. For gods sake when will it stop. Will no one ever act on the irony that the American public (at least those I have spoken to here) have far, far more intelligence than the man running their country?

Takes a deep breath and goes for a beer.

You do realize that this opinion is nothing new in the scheme of human behavior right?

[Undertoad]

Cat, I don't know shit about Iraq, but neither do you and I strongly believe that your narrative on the situation is inaccurate.

[Catwoman]

Of course it's nothing new. It's one of the oldest problems in history. My saying it will make no difference to you, or me, or the people that can make a difference. But I have a strong opinion about the situation. Self-censorship is the most powerful form of control in both our supposedly 'liberated' countries. If I cannot express an opinion... we are no more democratic than the countries we invade for that very reason. And I hope you will attack me and correct me, because I so want to be wrong.

Please tell me what about what I have said is inaccurate. This whole debate is about admitting ignorance, and I don't pretend to know anything (look at my sig). My judgement is based on a better-than-most understanding of 20c history, good knowledge of current events, and a very good understanding of media, propaganda and human behaviour. If you feel you can better inform me, please go ahead (*said without aggression ).

[Undertoad]

I think the notion that al Qaeda exists because of American oppression is wildly incorrect. Most of their attacks are not on American interests. The suspicion now is that they want to disrupt the oil industry, which would impact other areas of the world more than it would the U.S. al Qaeda wants to establish their brand of Islamic fundamentalism through the funding of hardliners in the Arabic world.

America does not oppress them, they want to oppress America.

(My hope is that we please do not let the progressive movement accidentally support fascism!)

[Catwoman]

Al-Quaeda are anti-imperialist and view capitalism as the world's oppressor. As the largest propagator of the above, it is no surprise America comes under attack. You have to agree that a lot of America's actions internationally are based on self-interest (which of course underpins capitalism anyway). This is what (on a basic level) these fanatic groups, utopian and willing to die for their vision, are rising up against. They do not want to oppress America, they want to destroy the cock-sure, money-orientated, imperialist principles they believe it is built upon. They believe so strongly in this, they are willing to die for it. Do you have anything you are willing to die for? To dismiss them as irrational fanaticists is irresponsible. In a hostage situation (which this escalating crisis is effectively becoming) do you give in to the demands of the kidnapper? Do you at least listen to them without letting pride get in the way? It goes without saying that Al-Quaeda and other militant groups cannot be tolerated. But you cannot assume what they say is wrong just because they are the ones to say it.