Kiro5hin posts my tale

[Undertoad]

Well that's a nice ego-boost. Kiro5hin accepted the story of my business failure - for their front page, even.

If you want to hear what I've been doing professionally for the last year and a half, this link summarizes it:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displays.../26/153853/420

[elSicomoro]

Damn Tony...I knew that you had shuttered your business, but I didn't realize it went down like THAT. Sorry man...

When I was unemployed in November, I thought I had found a great job with an internet company...it sounded too good to be really. An exciting management trainee program...blah blah.

So I drove out to Media from Torresdale during evening rush hour (on the Turnpike and Blue Route). Got there, filled out an application, then met with a manager. Then they tell me that it's essentially sales work. Oh hell no...I don't do sales...passive sales, but not aggressive sales. So I drove an hour out to Media, only to be there 10 minutes.

Nevertheless, I still have hope. And I hope all those hard-driving solid IT and tech folk are either still working or having success in finding new work.

[mbpark]

Tony,

Believe me I've seen this in my four years in this area working in the industry.

I read your story and was pointing out the .com assholes we dropped as clients, some of whom we are still collecting money from.

Mostly, they were run by Ivy Leaguers with little or no clue about technology who wanted websites. I know, we employed several of those asswipes, and kicked their asses to the curb after getting sick of their shit. If you know where I work, you know who these people were who got fired.

"The Internet" isn't something that's going to change the world. It's a way of distributing hypertext and multimedia rather inefficiently. Trying to transform it into something else is like polishing a turd. I've dealt with too many Internet "experts" whose knowledge of the Internet does not extend past ports 80 and 443.

I have dealt with a LOT of .com people, and thank god I didn't work with them on a client basis. At the end of the day, it all comes down to whether the site works or not, and what back-end integration works or not. Considering the asinine requests and complete disregard for either business logic or understanding of technology, I'm glad to see most .coms fail.

Quite honestly, there was no process to 90% of these sites, and most of the "Internet Arms" of major corporations had no respect for the IT people. They also had no respect for IT whatsoever, because the designers knew more than the DBAs and developers in back. What a bunch of fucknuts. They shot themselves in the feet being arrogant and not planning out their sites.

One certain very large client we had had a separate division for the web sites. Since we worked with their IT and web divisions, we had to follow IT's standards for any deliverable, and ensure we had code that was damn good, was documented, and was tested, with accompanying signoffs from everyone who mattered. I was personally told by the web people to ignore the IT standards because it was more important to get code revisions on the site fast. I paid attention to the IT people. We were one of three vendors on the project. Guess whose back-end and front-end code actually worked? I loved watching the head of IT at this client openly bash the other vendors because they handed in crap.

Now if only we can give the Wharton MBA's who pissed away VC money, the I-bankers who hyped the IPO's, and brokers who conned people into investing into companies that do not make money either jail time or jobs at McDonalds, I would be a happy Oracle DBA.

We never were an "Internet Company" or a "Web Company". We're a Software Engineering shop that happens to know a lot about Internet development. We also view web development as a logical extension of corporate business process, and didn't put the MarchFirst or RazorFish spin on our stuff. Also, we're not as arrogant and our CEO has a degree in finance, not dance. It was a matter of selling that to the right high-level people that got us where we are, and making them understand what the Internet really is. We also have serious legal teeth that prevent clients from screwing us over.

Tony, I've seen too many good shops close up in this area because of the fact that nobody had a clue or cared to listen to someone like you. I've always respected you because you do have a clue about business and software development. However, you got caught in the "gold rush" where many web shops in this area did cheap substandard work, charged through the nose, and got paid. The sales people were worse than Amway salesmen. The clients often did not make valid business decisions, and no matter how much you talked to them, would not understand.

I have been down that specific road so much because of the hype that was placed on the Net. Who the fuck needs a site that ships 50 lb bags of dogfood for free when you can pick it up at Genuardi's or PETCO for less? Who the fuck buys carpet online? Who the HELL needs to buy furniture online and have it shipped? Do people even think practically, or is this hopefully an aberration?

Mitch

[Undertoad]

Yeah, amongst the comments I agree with some guy, and you, that I was late to the market and the market was getting crowded. Unfortunately I was doing web development all along, but decided to make a go of it too late. Next time - and there will be a next time - I'll get in earlier.

But as I also said, you don't know what you don't know. There is so much to know, so much to try to predict, and so much that CAN go wrong. I's a very humbling experience, to blow it this big.

But at the same time, if one or two things had gone right, we'd still be in business.

[mbpark]

It wasn't time to market.

It was getting undercut by Amway salesmen.

Next time, I'd find a very comfortable niche, and keep at it That's what I did here. Specifically one that is government-funded.

Best of luck next time! I am glad I read that on kuro5hin and not on Fucked Company, home of brainless bad linking monkeys! At least it was an intelligent discussion, and not a "Ha ha these guys suck! all your websites are belong to us!" that usually accompanies the WIP of websites!

Mitch

[jaguar]

yea i read the story, while i don't do webdesign full time(i'm a 16y.o student) i've done owrk for peopel in the past, and yea, its just not worth it, people don't understand the limits of technology or that some things take time, and MONEY, jsut coz content on the net is free dosen't mean its cheap to develop, one asshole who asked me to do a webpage for his yacht brokerage then decided that, after 20-30 hours work, the flash virtual tours of benetau yachts were not worth it and refused to pay for for the excessive amount of time i put into them! The web is the biggest asshole magnet ever made, i'mglad i'm not seriosuly involved iwth any company to do with it

[MaggieL]

...apparently I've reached the end of a seven-year stint at what was Micro Focus and became Merant while I was there. I'm actually a useful sort of person to have around; the ways in which I've been useful in the past and would like to be in the future can be seen in my resume:

http://voicenet.com/~maggie/mslresume.html

[Violine]

Originally posted by Tony Shepps
Well that's a nice ego-boost. Kiro5hin accepted the story of my business failure - for their front page, even.

If you want to hear what I've been doing professionally for the last year and a half, this link summarizes it:

http://www.kuro5hin.org/?op=displays.../26/153853/420

Oh, man, Tony, I made your story??? I feel so guilty now for even asking!

But then again, I'm in the same boat - our 3 year grant has been eliminated after only 1 year, due in part to GW's budget cuts to the NEA. This, of course, after relocating to Kansas..... So now I have to figure out a way to keep MY business going without that cute, <B>little</B> ($1250/month) government check...

Ruth

[richlevy]

Originally posted by Violine

Oh, man, Tony, I made your story??? I feel so guilty now for even asking!

But then again, I'm in the same boat - our 3 year grant has been eliminated after only 1 year, due in part to GW's budget cuts to the NEA. This, of course, after relocating to Kansas..... So now I have to figure out a way to keep MY business going without that cute, <B>little</B> ($1250/month) government check...

Ruth

Well, in "Forrest Gump", his girlfriend gets a job playing the guitar naked........

BTW, your mom doesn't know where I live, does she?

[richlevy]

Tony, we were going over the idea of having an AITP meeting at our student chapter in Widener. We wanted a panel of speakers to share their experiences with a mixed audience of students and professional members. I suggested approaching you for this but at present I have been outvoted. I personally think that your experience is one that should be shared with these students.

[Undertoad]

Ruth, I understand *completely*. I mean completely completely. The only reason you made the story was because your timing was ultra-ironic. The business died in part because nobody wanted to pay much for sites, and even after it was gone, even acquaintances didn't want to pay for sites. You didn't know!

I should have understood what you were saying when you first asked. I still want to do your audio for free. I bet if we had met officially-in-person at a GTG or something, I would have done your site for free. If you need free hosting I have that for you.

It was all just irony, and my poetic license filter.

[Undertoad]

Rich, I would really enjoy telling the tale to students, and I believe that with a little prep time I could tell it in such a way that it would really benefit them. I have some speaking experience so it probably wouldn't be a bust.

IME undergrads never study the real world, and when I went to St. Joe's for MBA (I quit because too much of it was nonsense), they never studied failure. If 9 out of 10 startups do fail for one reason or another, it's important to study failure.

[tw]

Originally posted by Tony Shepps
...
It was all just irony, and my poetic license filter.

When I first started reading it, I though it was a quote from a recent Dilbert. Maybe it was and the names were changed to protect the innocent comic strip characters.

[Violine]

Originally posted by Tony Shepps
Ruth, I understand *completely*. I mean completely completely. The only reason you made the story was because your timing was ultra-ironic. The business died in part because nobody wanted to pay much for sites, and even after it was gone, even acquaintances didn't want to pay for sites. You didn't know!

Well, news on this front, too. The duo will be a quartet starting in Aug 2001. We just got word last night that we'd been accepted as a graduate quartet in residence at the University of Oklahoma (Norman, OK) and, in conjnction, artists in residence at Oklahoma Baptist University (Shawnee, OK). The personnel will change too, as Rich dallied too long before deciding that he wanted to go to OK (because we got a similar offer from San Diego State, but without the massive funding and support that OU has) and another violist has committed. But, I included web site design and housing in our negotiations and apparently the university will meet those 'demands'. It's good for their recruitment :-) The only drawback is that it will have an <i>ou.edu</i> address and it won't be totally ours...

As for a website, I am going to modify my requirements to include pages for other ensembles that I am involved with, as I will be touring Germany this summer with a classical guitarist; a relationship I hope will continue after the tour!

And, the music.... we're playing another major recital this afternoon and may have some better samples. BTW, the cellist who is playing with us this afternoon will be joining me at OU, along with a Houston based violinist.

Ruth