Professor Gates, Harvard's Pride

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Extensively quoted by Larry Elder.

Whether the prof had had a couple before heading home or not, he was acting and talking about like he had.

[Cloud]

I was wondering when da Cellar would comment about this.

All the guy had to do was be polite and show the cop his driver's license. But no . . . he had to fly off the handle. Conditioning, perhaps, because this is THE scholar of racism in this country, who "knew every racial incident since Jim Crow" -- so he just had to make one himself.

Even smart people can be stupid.

[xoxoxoBruce]

After seeing and listening to both of them on the TV, I came to the conclusion they are both lying. Both trying to act so innocent, it could be they are trying to start acting careers.

The cop, responding to a break in call, has no idea what kind of shit is going to go down. And don't tell me a 5' 6", 150 lb man can't fuck you up... or kill you. So he's on edge, and acting all official and badass out of fear/caution.

The prof, well know and respected in his little circles, feels the cop should take him at his word, and expects polite conversation. He gets pissed when the cop follows him into the house uninvited, even though he hasn't proven who he is or that he should be there, yet. Like the cop is going to let a still suspect just walk away, c'mon.

From there it escalates, with the prof being cocky and the cop getting more pissed at being given a hard time while risking his life to protect the prof's property, and starts acting more hardass.

And the rest is history in the making, by everyone choosing sides while the media plays it to the hilt, interviewing everyone with an axe to grind.

[classicman]

Wow - Bruce. You really nailed that one.

Oh, maybe a 5'6" guy could have a weapon.

Maybe the guy, in the last 4 years lived at that address (got his ID, and beat his wife and was kicked out. His License would still show this as his address, yet things still had to be checked out.

just a couple random thoughts.

[Happy Monkey]

Regardless of whatever else happened, both accounts state that Gates did eventually show the cop ID, at which point the cop should have been gone, and there would have been nobody for Gates to be "tumultuous" at.

I'm sick of people acting like cops are wild animals, and if you don't tiptoe around them you deserve what you get.

[Sundae]

I wish eminent British Professors spoke like this:

As Crowley continued to question Gates, the Harvard professor allegedly told him, 'You don't know who you're messing with.' When Crowley asked to speak with him outside, Gates allegedly said, 'Ya, I'll speak with your momma outside.'

Snicker.

[glatt]

Bottom line, the cop did everything right, up until the moment after the prof showed proof that he lived there. Once the guy proved it was his house, the cop should have left.

There's the whole issue that cops should be polite to citizens, and citizens should be polite to cops, but that's all window dressing. I think both of them were disrespectful to one another, and the cop arrested him only because he was being a dick. No law against that though. The cop should have a thicker skin. Prof shouldn't be surprised though. If you're a dick to a cop, it's not going to go well, regardless of your skin color.

But the cop was wrong to arrest the prof.

[Cloud]

But there's conflicting accounts of what ID he exactly showed. It says that he showed his Harvard ID--why? Do those have the address? It's not clear whether he showed his drivers' license at all, first.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Regardless of whatever else happened, both accounts state that Gates did eventually show the cop ID, at which point the cop should have been gone, and there would have been nobody for Gates to be "tumultuous" at.

If it wasn't a membership card to the Mickey Mouse Club. It would have to be a valid ID with sufficient information to convince the cop he belonged there.

I'm sick of people acting like cops are wild animals, and if you don't tiptoe around them you deserve what you get.

I don't tiptoe around cops, but I do know I'm required to cooperate with them when they are performing their official duties or they have the power to detain/arrest me, by force if necessary, for interference with a police officer in the performance of his duties.

I also know if I act like a dick, he will act like a bigger dick, because it's imperative for his safety to maintain control of the situation. That's his most important weapon, because he has no way of knowing who's armed, nuts or a threat.

There are certainly cops that shouldn't be, but most are just trying to do their job and get home alive.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

If it wasn't a membership card to the Mickey Mouse Club. It would have to be a valid ID with sufficient information to convince the cop he belonged there.

He wasn't arrested for not belonging there; he was arrested for being tumultuous in his own home.

I also know if I act like a dick, he will act like a bigger dick, because it's imperative for his safety to maintain control of the situation.

Arresting someone for attitude is losing control, not maintaining it.

[Sundae]

Thing is, as Bruce and Cloud have stated, there are very different accounts.
Mum worked for the Police for 13 years (and I can tell you if I'd ever been arrested she would have assumed I was at fault.)

She did admit to family that there are bad apples, the crack-heads-&-ask-later-brigade, officers who have short fuses, or who were arseholes or who simply loved procedure. And she told us of an altercation between an old friend of hers and a police officer where the stories differed wildly. From her knowledge of both, she believed the fault had to be on both sides, two arsey men with over-inflated egos...

In general I was brought up to be on the side of law enforcement. It speaks to a side of me that has been conditioned to accept authority. But I also know they are human, and what goes down in official records is not always what we would consider the truth, were we eye witnesses. And police are racist, homophobic, violent and capable of over-reacting. I think it's in a slightly greater percentage than in the general public, just because the job is bound to attract people with forceful opinions.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Sundae Girl

Thing is, as Bruce and Cloud have stated, there are very different accounts.

But both accounts say that ID was shown, and neither account says that Gates wasn't in his own house.
In fact, the cop says he offered to use Gates' house key to relock the door after the arrest.

From her knowledge of both, she believed the fault had to be on both sides, two arsey men with over-inflated egos...

And that probably applies here as well. But one of those people was performing an official duty, and could have ended the encounter by leaving, once it was determined that there was no break-in.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

He wasn't arrested for not belonging there; he was arrested for being tumultuous in his own home. Arresting someone for attitude is losing control, not maintaining it.

He was arrested for "being tumultuous" during a police investigation of a reported crime, where he was the prime suspect. Whether he showed sufficient evidence of his right to be there is not clear. But even if he did that doesn't end the investigation. The cop should still try to find out if the person that reported the break in, saw someone else, before the professor got there. If there was someone hiding in the house, unknown to either of them. What if the cop left and the prof was murdered?
But anyway, verbal assault on a working cop is sufficient reason for arrest, obstructing justice, interfering with a criminal investigation, and clearly racism.

He wasn't arrested for his attitude, he was arrested for his actions, and the fact that he was arrested proves the cop was in control of the situation, if not his temper.

"Being tumultuous" in the real world is risking escalated retaliation, often massive.

I still maintain they were both wrong.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

If there was someone hiding in the house, unknown to either of them. What if the cop left and the prof was murdered?

So the cop was putting Gates in protective custody to save him from a hypothetical burglar who he offered to lock in the house behind them?

He wasn't arrested for his attitude, he was arrested for his actions, and the fact that he was arrested proves the cop was in control of the situation, if not his temper.

He needs to be in control of both. Gates' actions were displaying attitude, so actions vs attitude is a bit of a quibble.

I still maintain they were both wrong.

Sure. Gates was wrong for being an ass, and Crowley was wrong for arresting him.

Cops are supposed to deal with people who are having bad days, and if they can only handle asses by tossing them in jail, they need a new line of work. "Don't poke the bear" excuses are only appropriate if the cop is considered to be a wild animal, unable or unwilling to deescalate.

[Shawnee123]

I don't disagree with you, HM, but I have to say that throwing the race card is about as shitty as it gets. Like a woman crying rape, out of revenge, it belittles everyone who has actually been hurt as a result of such crimes. It's a cheap cop-out, pun intended, and slimy and sick. It's a bit more than a little "attitude." Someone who is out there every day dealing with the dumbasses of the world might be a little taken aback to be accused of such a thing when they are trying, against all the crap in the world, to be one who protects all law-abiding citizens, regardless of race.


There, I said it.