What do you hear when people say freedom?

[TheMercenary]

He gets it right becuase it pisses off liberals.


Courtesy of the Red, White, & Blue (The Angry American)
Toby Keith

American girls and American guys will always stand up and salute;
Will always recognize
When we see ol' glory flying,
There's a lot of men dead,
So we can sleep in peace at night when we lay down our head.

My daddy served in the army,
Where he lost his right eye.
But he flew a flag out in our yard 'til the day that he died.
He wanted my mother, my brother, my sister and me
To grow up and live happy in the land of the free.

Now this nation that I love has fallen under attack.
A mighty sucker punch came flying in from somewhere in the back.
Soon as we could see clearly through our big black eye,
Man we lit up your world like the Fourth of July.

Hey Uncle Sam put your name at the top of his list,
And the Statue of Liberty started shaking her fist.
And the eagle will fly,
And there's gonna be Hell,
When you hear Mother Freedom start ringing her bell!
It's gonna feel like the whole wide world is raining down on you...
Brought to you courtesy of the Red, White and Blue!

Oh, Justice will be served and the battle will rage.
This big dog will fight when you rattle his cage
You'll be sorry that you messed with the US of A
'Cuz we'll put a boot in your ass
It's the American way.

Hey Uncle Sam put your name at the top of his list,
And the Statue of Liberty started shaking her fist.
And the eagle will fly,
And there's gonna be Hell,
When you hear Mother Freedom start ringing her bell!
And it'll feel like the whole wide world is raining down on you...
Brought to you courtesy of the Red, White and Blue!

Of the Red, White and Blue..
Of my Red, White and Blue...

[TheMercenary]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

In the U.S. freedom meant freedom from interference and control by Europe. At that time, in all the European countries (I'm including Britain), the have-nots were at the mercy of the haves. If you didn't own land your livelihood, indeed your life, depended on the people that did. It was a centuries old system with no way to break that cycle of poor, beget poor, beget poor. The excess poor, the ones the rich didn't need as help, were deported, or starved to death.

The fortunate people that came here, where there was land out the kazoo, had an opportunity the break that cycle and become independent. To survive and even flourish, by busting their butts. But if Europe remained in control, the system these people had escaped would be back to haunt them. Remember the European countries were still bickering over control of the "New World".

So freedom was the basis of the American Revolution, freedom from Europe and the old system... also freedom from their own fledgling government. That meant to the citizens just what was promised, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It didn't promise the government wouldn't set up rules, pass laws and control the country, it only promised it wouldn't kill you for no reason, that you were free to go live anywhere you could afford, and by your own labor make or break your fortune/future.

That's all they promised, and they spelled it out in the Bill of Rights, so the people would know what they were supporting, what they would fight and die for.
But then came the philosophers and the "freedom" that was clear and simple in 1776, got massaged like it was turkish taffy until the word didn't have a clear definition anymore.
The country has gotten populated, in some areas crowded, and life is much more complicated. So freedom, now without a clear definition, has been stretched to umbrella and justify every want.

I take my definition of freedom from whence it came.

Actually, bruce nails it. Bravo.

[bluecuracao]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

In the U.S. freedom meant freedom from interference and control by Europe. At that time, in all the European countries (I'm including Britain), the have-nots were at the mercy of the haves. If you didn't own land your livelihood, indeed your life, depended on the people that did. It was a centuries old system with no way to break that cycle of poor, beget poor, beget poor. The excess poor, the ones the rich didn't need as help, were deported, or starved to death.

The fortunate people that came here, where there was land out the kazoo, had an opportunity the break that cycle and become independent. To survive and even flourish, by busting their butts. But if Europe remained in control, the system these people had escaped would be back to haunt them. Remember the European countries were still bickering over control of the "New World".

So freedom was the basis of the American Revolution, freedom from Europe and the old system... also freedom from their own fledgling government. That meant to the citizens just what was promised, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It didn't promise the government wouldn't set up rules, pass laws and control the country, it only promised it wouldn't kill you for no reason, that you were free to go live anywhere you could afford, and by your own labor make or break your fortune/future.

That's all they promised, and they spelled it out in the Bill of Rights, so the people would know what they were supporting, what they would fight and die for.

Yup, all that still holds true to this day.

[Beestie]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

No, freedom is having no levels of obligation, and that's only possible when you have no stuff and no relationships... ie nothing left to lose. See?

Clarity such as this is a gift. Perfectly, clear now. Outlook adjusted. Thank you.

[dar512]

I'm a child of the 60s, so I've got to go along with ft^3, I hear Richie Havens.

[Mystic Rythm]

Freedom is just about having a will.

Will thats free

[Trilby]

I hear Mel Gibson.

[JPB]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

No, freedom is having no levels of obligation, and that's only possible when you have no stuff and no relationships... ie nothing left to lose. See?

Your freedom doesn't sound very free to me.
A free person is not allowed to relate to anything?

Freedom is being allowed to do what you want. This is Individual Freedom.
The concept Freedom becomes more interesting once other people enter the picture(i am assuming that all people are considered to be (at least theoretically) equal)
When you say everybody is Free you are talking about something completely different. Namely your individual Freedom insofar as it does not infringe on the individual Freedom of all others within your sphere of influence.

I just realised this is all semantics, if we imagine a scale going from absolute freedom(everything is allowed) to absolute robotdom(everything that isn't forbidden is manditory) then half of the people here would say that the absolute freedom is The One And Only True Freedom(TM) and the other half would say that the golden mean is The One And Only True Freedom(TM).
This division would put the 'freedom does not exist' crowd under category 1.

Oh, pip pip tallyho and whatnot.

[piercehawkeye45]

I think I agree.

Absolute freedom is impossible to accomplish.

If we are free to do whatever we want we will then take away other people's freedoms. If we make sure no one can take away anyone else's freedom, we can not do whatever we want. To me, freedom is the subjective equilibrium between the two.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

No, freedom is having no levels of obligation, and that's only possible when you have no stuff and no relationships... ie nothing left to lose. See?

Originally Posted by JPB

Your freedom doesn't sound very free to me.
A free person is not allowed to relate to anything?

That's not my definition, that's my explanation of Janis Joplin's definition.
My definition is back in post 22.

[henry quirk]

'What do you hear when people say 'freedom'?'

a fiction

really: what are any of us 'free' of?

each of us is bound up in, and by, 'the world' (both within and without)

none of us are 'free', so: 'freedom' is a nice fiction, a convenient, and sometimes useful, fiction, but still a fiction

what we each have is far more powerful and real than 'freedom' or 'free will': we have agency, or, the capacity to choose

not an unlimited capacity to choose, but -- at all times, in all circumstances -- a capacity, a possibility, nonetheless

and synonymous with agency is self-possession, that is: the willful claiming of one's self and the defense of that claim

i claim my 'self' as my first, best, property and do as i like within the broad boundaries of 'the world'

your job -- if you want it -- is to defend yourself against my possible predation on you (just as i must defend myself against predation by you)


up-thread, Shawnee123 wrote, 'Pedophiles are always doing that, thinking they are free to rape children'

i counter: they are not 'free' to rape children, but they -- the pedophiles -- are doing just that...not because it's their 'right' but simply because 'they can'

if for example, my nephew (who is very important to me) were molested, i'd want the molester's liver (as an act of revenge, which is real; not an act of justice, which is fiction)...if i successfully hunt down the person and claim my revenge, then he loses...but: if the molester can safely evade me or my proxies (the police, a hit man, etc.) then he wins

all the moralizing in the world won't change this fact, nor will all the talk of 'freedom' (or limits on 'freedom'), or 'justice' (a fiction resting on the fiction of 'law' which is a fiction resting on the fiction of 'morality' which is nothing more than the median of successful behaviors exhibited by large numbers of folks across expanses of time)

seems to me: you defend against the predator simply because you value yourself (a subjective, idiosyncratic, perception), not because of a 'moral', or 'law'

certainly: climbing atop a soapbox (on a street corner, or, in the statehouse) and droning on about the sanctity of your 'freedom' nets a body nothing... --henry quirk

[DanaC]

what we each have is far more powerful and real than 'freedom' or 'free will': we have agency, or, the capacity to choose

Nice definition. I like that.

[henry quirk]

thanks...

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by henry quirk

really: what are any of us 'free' of?

Not free of, free to. You call it agency but it's the same thing.
Freedom, is free to... take away freedom and you are no longer free to do what you wish, as least not without dire consequences.

[henry quirk]

'Not free of, free to'

i don't see the distinction

to be 'free to' means one is 'free of <restraint>'

also: 'freedom', 'free', is not the same as agency

again: to 'be free', to have 'freedom', means -- to me, at least -- one is unrestrained

and we each are restrained: by our own flesh (the way reality works) at the least; by the esoterica of the culture (all the fictions foisted up on us) at the most

agency, on the other hand, is simply a placeholder for the very real exercise of choice, that is: choosing and doing

again: our choices and the actions extending from those choices are not unlimited...in fact: very often, our options are severely limited in both choice and action, and still we can -- must -- choose

'freedom' and 'free will' are, i think, the sphere of god (if it exists) while agency is for us, IS us


'take away freedom and you are no longer free to do what you wish'

indeed!

but as 'agent' (agency) even if shackled (made un-free) one can still choose and act...not always as one likes or wants, but, even the shackled man led to the gallows has the capacity to choose

such a man may only have the choice of whether to walk with a measure of dignity to death (and therefore 'own' the death), or, dissolve into a puking puddle begging for mercy (becoming a slave of the death), but he still has the capacity, the possibility, of choice

'freedom', again, is a nice idea, a useful fiction, but it's a fiction nonetheless

agency, which is the agent, which is the self-possessed individual, is real, demonstrable, and intuitively 'correct'