Palestinian baby killed by Israeli Terrorists

umairfoo · 07-24-2002, 10:14 AM

More photos of the bombing here:

"Murder in Gaza"
http://palestinechronicle.com/articl...20722222400636

"Gaza Mourns Its Dead"
http://palestinechronicle.com/articl...20723150917733

07-24-2002, 12:17 PM

Could you please define "terrorism"?

Hey, don't bother, I'll go ahead and do it right here.

Quote:

terrorism

n : the systematic use of violence as a means to intimidate or coerce societies or governments

Okay. So now we know what terrorism is.

So, tell me... who are the terrorists that killed this child?

LordSludge · 07-24-2002, 02:16 PM

So by that definition, the military is terrorist. Oh, wait...

MaggieL · 07-24-2002, 04:37 PM

I was thinking of the headline: "Dead baby's body exploited for propaganda value", but that's just me.

umairfoo · 07-24-2002, 09:45 PM

there is such thing as state terrorism.....and forgive me for daring to show a palestinian civilian casualty. only israeli civilians die by terrorism. maybe that is why 700 israelis and a paltry 1800 palestinians have died?

Undertoad · 07-24-2002, 10:14 PM

Here's an honest question... when they specify that number, 1800, does that include the suicide bombers themselves? Does it include the suicide bombers who are unsuccessful and kill only themselves? (A large number blow up at checkpoints because they are instructed to off themselves if they are going to be found out.)

The question came up before, kinda, and didn't get answered, kinda. And it's important, kinda.

07-24-2002, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by umairfoo
there is such thing as state terrorism.....and forgive me for daring to show a palestinian civilian casualty. only israeli civilians die by terrorism. maybe that is why 700 israelis and a paltry 1800 palestinians have died?

We've seen Palestinian civilian casualties before. Nothing new here.

And there is such a thing as state terrorism. You just haven't shown a picture of it yet. What you have here is a civilian casualty of an airstrike on a known terrorist operative. They had attempted to take him out eight times before but had postponed because he was around innocent civilians. This time, their information said that he wasn't with innocent civilians. They struck, they accidentally killed a bunch of kids as well as the target, and it sucked. They apologized for the loss of innocent life.

Show me Hamas' apology for the loss of innocent life and then we can talk.

elSicomoro · 07-25-2002, 08:29 AM

My $ .02:

By the dictionary definition of terrorism, I'd say both sides are guilty of such. However, we use the word today like a cheap whore...incredibly overused. Not to mention, that photo is just another attempt to whore out innocent civilians to justify some cause...to stir up what little emotion any people have left regarding this situation.

"You're just another victim, kid."--House of Pain

At this point, I find the numbers to be irrelevant. Not that I don't care about innocents being killed, but numbers can be deceptive. One side having more dead doesn't necessarily mean jack shit. There will always be casualties of war, and I can understand that. I don't personally like it though...one dead is one too many.

Israel says that they tried various alternatives before going with this one. I admittedly don't know much about military operations, but I'm naturally skeptical. It's hard to trust either side these days.

Alon Pincas (Israeli Consul General) took a big step IMO by admitting it was a mistake on Donahue. He and a legal representative for the Palestinians went at it Tuesday night. It was interesting, but nowhere near as fun as when Pincas goes up against Hasim Rahman on Hardball.

The best step the Palestinians could take right now is...nothing. I personally think that the attack was a mistake and could lead to further attacks on Israelis. I hope I am wrong.

umairfoo · 07-25-2002, 01:17 PM

to put palestinian deaths in perspective, and to answer your question Undertoad, here is a graph taken from The Guardian (UK paper). it separates suicide bombings from the palestinian and israeli deaths.

the majority of palestinian deaths occur when israeli soldiers are bored and decide to shoot at innocents walking the streets or those trying to get to a hospital.

one israeli official claimed that palestinian civilians getting killed is rare and that this attack was the exception instead of the rule. he further stated that when was the last time you heard about palestinian civilians getting killed?

He is somewhat right. you DO never hear about palestinian civilian deaths. they die silent, unheralded deaths. several a day in fact, but you will almost never hear about them in the american media. what does the israeli army say about these deaths. always, it is "looking into the matter." and after that, nothing...

as for apologies, i would like to hear a true israeli apology for an innocent palestinian death. i don't want to hear that "we are looking into the matter."

what does an israeli apology look like? "We
regret the loss."

What do they regret? They regret the negative impact the bombing will have on israel's image on the world stage. they don't regret killing civilians.

a true apology, heartfelt, would be to say that your heart goes out to the families of the victims. some sort of compensation would be given to the families. we all heard this here after 9/11, and you could tell people meant it. "we regret the loss" is toilet-paper fodder.

as for truly selecting a good time to attack, any idiot knows that if you drop a 1 ton bomb in a crowded residential apartment building in the middle of the night when people are sleeping, there are going to plenty of palestinian civilian casualties.

but that's ok. no one was supposed to know. no one ever does. however, they made the mistake of killing too many palestinians at once. that is what they truly regret.

07-25-2002, 01:21 PM

Fine. We can do semantics.

Show me Hamas' statement reading "We regret the loss" when referring to the innocent Israelis killed in a suicide bombing.

07-25-2002, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by umairfoo
the majority of palestinian deaths occur when israeli soldiers are bored and decide to shoot at innocents walking the streets or those trying to get to a hospital.

This is false. The majority of Palestinian deaths occur when the IDF begins an operation to curb militancy and, in the process of eliminating extremists, kills civilians.

I would be very interested to see one incident where an Israeli soldier was bored and shot an innocent Palestinian walking the streets - without being provoked. So let's see your sources. I want names.

umairfoo · 07-25-2002, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dhamsaic
Fine. We can do semantics.

Show me Hamas' statement reading "We regret the loss" when referring to the innocent Israelis killed in a suicide bombing.

what does hamas have to regret? their image is tarnished anyway. israel's image, in the eyes of americans, is squeeky clean for the most part. when something like this occurs, of course israel regrets it because it threatens their facade. they, however, do not regret it for the families.

apparently, you haven't gotten my original point or read it well-enough...

umairfoo · 07-25-2002, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by dhamsaic

This is false. The majority of Palestinian deaths occur when the IDF begins an operation to curb militancy and, in the process of eliminating extremists, kills civilians.

I would be very interested to see one incident where an Israeli soldier was bored and shot an innocent Palestinian walking the streets - without being provoked. So let's see your sources. I want names.

this is from a b'tselem (israeli human rights group) report titled "Trigger Happy." i hope you are satisfied by the source, since i doubt you would have accepted a palestinian one. they have even more examples.

http://www.btselem.org

Senior IDF officials have repeatedly rejected claims that soldiers fire without justification and claim that the IDF refrains from harming innocent persons. This report contradicts these claims: The IDF's open-fire policy throughout this intifada has resulted in extensive harm to Palestinian civilians who were not involved in any activity against Israel. These incidents are not "exceptional" cases, but rather they constitute a large portion of the casualties throughout the Occupied Territories.

Initiated Shooting

Testimonies taken by B’Tselem from both soldiers and Palestinians indicate that contrary to the claims of Brigadier General Naveh and other sources, there are cases in which IDF soldiers initiate the shooting, without any shoots fired from the Palestinian side. A conscript soldier who served in the Gaza Strip stated in his testimony to B’Tselem that:

While I was at the post, there were a number of cases of shooting. I thought that it was an exchange of fire, but afterwards I understood from discussions with other soldiers that it was just soldiers shooting out of boredom. Soldiers at two different positions would coordinate opening fire between them, and afterwards they would say that they were under fire. It is important for me to state that I am not talking about single shots, but very massive shooting. In the beginning, I was sure that they had really fired at our post, but afterwards I understood, as stated, that it was shooting out of boredom. From conversations with my friends who were at posts in other areas, it became clear to me that it occurs in those places as well. My friends, who were at the post in the Strip. Told me that they emptied entire crates of ammunition out of boredom.

Ariel Shatil, a reserve soldier, told Yediot Aharonot daily regarding this topic that “They say ‘The Palestinians are shooting at us and we are responding.’ It’s not true. There was one officer there who said to the soldiers guarding at the lookout: “Too quiet for you? You’re not sure? Fire a couple of rounds.’ Every night they would shoot. We start and they shoot back.”

Palestinian testimony also indicates that there are cases in which soldiers open fire even when there was no prior shooting by Palestinians. B’Tselem fieldworker Nabil Mekherez was shot in the arm by shooting initiated by the IDF while in his home in Khan Yunis on 1 February 2002. Hosni al-Jarami, a resident of the Balata Refugee Camp, in a testimony to B’Tselem, described shooting originating from the IDF post located approximately 500 meters from the camp, at Jabl a-Tor. His neighbor, Saleh Zeidan, was killed from the shooting, which took place on 19 August 2001. Al-Jarami said that:

I would like to state that the soldiers at the military post at Jabl a-Tor tend to shoot blindly at the Balata Refugee Camp, sometimes for even no reason. They shoot when someone shoots at them, but they shoot at the camp even when no one is shooting at them. This shooting takes place often, and usually it is innocent civilians who are killed and injured, and not those who are shooting.

‘Adel ‘Atiya Yusef al-Ar’a, age 48, resident of Khan Yunis, told B’Tselem that on 7 May 2001, IDF soldiers shot a number of tank shells at his home, located approximately 450 meters from the Ganei Tal settlement. As a result, the house was severely damaged. In addition, there is an elementary school near his house, and the pupils ran away terrified. Some of them fainted and were injured during the exit, and ambulances evacuated them from the site. According to al-Ar’a:

I would like to emphasize that this shelling was not preceded by an shooting on the Palestinian side. Sometimes armed people in civilian dress do indeed shoot at the Israeli post from the land located to the north at a distance of about 300 meters, or to the south at a distance of about 300 meters from the main road, and that is enough for the soldiers to respond with shells. Sometimes, it seems to the soldiers that anything that moves constitutes a shooting target, even if it is a dog or other animal.

07-25-2002, 03:44 PM

Your post certainly contains some interesting testimony, and if it is indeed true, then something certainly needs to be done. I, of course, did not imagine that you would be able to dig up a source. So I was wrong about that. However, I definitely would like to see something more than a single person giving their story.

Even taking that into account, I still seriously doubt that you can support your assertion that a majority of Palestinian deaths are caused by this. Again, you're welcome to prove me wrong.

Quote:

Originally posted by umairfoo
apparently, you haven't gotten my original point or read it well-enough...

Or, perhaps, you're failing to make your point.

Quote:

israel's image, in the eyes of americans, is squeeky clean for the most part.

I am an American. But I do not place the blame for the conflict solely on the Palestinians. Both sides are responsible.

I also strongly disagree that the above child was killed by "Israeli Terrorists". The bombing of that building was a tactical operation against a man that was responsible for the deaths of many innocent Israeli civilians. Israel has a great interest in eliminating those that are attempting to bring about their destruction.

The Hamas/Palestinian extremist argument might make sense if they were only carrying out operations against military targets. However, they're not. We've been over this a thousand times before on the Cellar, and undoubtedly we're about to embark on it again. Let's go ahead and clear this up right now: the death of any innocent civilian is tragic, but the intentional killing of an innocent civilian is reprehensible. Suicide bombings, besides being counterproductive, are reprehensible. An Israeli tank firing shells into a market is reprehensible.

However, Israel does not target innocent civilians. How often do you read about a suicide bomber taking out innocent civilians and an Israeli terrorist? NEVER. Mainly because Palestinian suicide bombers are too busy targetting little girls and their mothers.

I can't even count how many times Israel has killed innocent Palestinian civilians but also taken out a Hamas leader. I don't think it's just by accident that they keep killing these senior Hamas military leaders. No, I would guess that it's because the targets of Israeli attacks are, in an overwhelming majority of cases, Palestinian extremists.

Quote:

what does hamas have to regret?

Ah, yes. I see. It's okay to kill a couple of those dirty zionist kikes. Of course, heaven forbid that a Palestinian be killed.

You have to treat the murder of civilians equally, no matter what side they're on. If it's okay for Israeli civilians to be killed then it's okay for Palestinian civilians to be killed too.

Undertoad · 07-25-2002, 06:30 PM

My question was specifically NOT answered by your graph dude. The legend at the bottom lists the sources, amidst which you find:

Suicide attacks: Reuters (casualties exclude bombers).

The number that I wanted remains hidden in the green bar: I want to know the number of Palestinians that have died or were killed in suicide bombing attacks or attempts.

As far as your report goes: sorry man, no sale for me.

Simply put, how huge would the international conspiracy have to be... that could keep this fact -- that IDF soldiers are routinely picking off civilians -- completely hidden from CNN, ABC, BBC, The New York Times, the Washington Post, the Associated Press, Reuters, and every other major news organization on the planet.

I guess they could all be biased. But don't you think at least the French would have something on it?

07-24-2002, 10:14 AM	#1
umairfoo Non-Newbie Sort Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 6	Palestinian baby killed by Israeli Terrorists More photos of the bombing here: "Murder in Gaza" http://palestinechronicle.com/articl...20722222400636 "Gaza Mourns Its Dead" http://palestinechronicle.com/articl...20723150917733

07-24-2002, 02:16 PM	#3
LordSludge Geek Join Date: May 2002 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 76	So by that definition, the military is terrorist. Oh, wait... __________________ "Fasten your seatbelt. I saw something in a cartoon once that I want to try."

07-24-2002, 04:37 PM	#4
MaggieL in the Hour of Scampering Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Jeffersonville PA (15 mi NW of Philadelphia) Posts: 4,060	I was thinking of the headline: "Dead baby's body exploited for propaganda value", but that's just me. __________________ "Neither can his Mind be thought to be in Tune,whose words do jarre; nor his reason In frame, whose sentence is preposterous..."

07-25-2002, 01:17 PM	#9
umairfoo Non-Newbie Sort Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 6	in perspective to put palestinian deaths in perspective, and to answer your question Undertoad, here is a graph taken from The Guardian (UK paper). it separates suicide bombings from the palestinian and israeli deaths. the majority of palestinian deaths occur when israeli soldiers are bored and decide to shoot at innocents walking the streets or those trying to get to a hospital. one israeli official claimed that palestinian civilians getting killed is rare and that this attack was the exception instead of the rule. he further stated that when was the last time you heard about palestinian civilians getting killed? He is somewhat right. you DO never hear about palestinian civilian deaths. they die silent, unheralded deaths. several a day in fact, but you will almost never hear about them in the american media. what does the israeli army say about these deaths. always, it is "looking into the matter." and after that, nothing... as for apologies, i would like to hear a true israeli apology for an innocent palestinian death. i don't want to hear that "we are looking into the matter." what does an israeli apology look like? "We regret the loss." What do they regret? They regret the negative impact the bombing will have on israel's image on the world stage. they don't regret killing civilians. a true apology, heartfelt, would be to say that your heart goes out to the families of the victims. some sort of compensation would be given to the families. we all heard this here after 9/11, and you could tell people meant it. "we regret the loss" is toilet-paper fodder. as for truly selecting a good time to attack, any idiot knows that if you drop a 1 ton bomb in a crowded residential apartment building in the middle of the night when people are sleeping, there are going to plenty of palestinian civilian casualties. but that's ok. no one was supposed to know. no one ever does. however, they made the mistake of killing too many palestinians at once. that is what they truly regret.

07-24-2002, 09:45 PM	#5
umairfoo Non-Newbie Sort Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 6	there is such thing as state terrorism.....and forgive me for daring to show a palestinian civilian casualty. only israeli civilians die by terrorism. maybe that is why 700 israelis and a paltry 1800 palestinians have died?

07-24-2002, 10:14 PM	#6
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Here's an honest question... when they specify that number, 1800, does that include the suicide bombers themselves? Does it include the suicide bombers who are unsuccessful and kill only themselves? (A large number blow up at checkpoints because they are instructed to off themselves if they are going to be found out.) The question came up before, kinda, and didn't get answered, kinda. And it's important, kinda.

07-25-2002, 08:29 AM	#8
elSicomoro Person who doesn't update the user title Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 12,486	My $ .02: By the dictionary definition of terrorism, I'd say both sides are guilty of such. However, we use the word today like a cheap whore...incredibly overused. Not to mention, that photo is just another attempt to whore out innocent civilians to justify some cause...to stir up what little emotion any people have left regarding this situation. "You're just another victim, kid."--House of Pain At this point, I find the numbers to be irrelevant. Not that I don't care about innocents being killed, but numbers can be deceptive. One side having more dead doesn't necessarily mean jack shit. There will always be casualties of war, and I can understand that. I don't personally like it though...one dead is one too many. Israel says that they tried various alternatives before going with this one. I admittedly don't know much about military operations, but I'm naturally skeptical. It's hard to trust either side these days. Alon Pincas (Israeli Consul General) took a big step IMO by admitting it was a mistake on Donahue. He and a legal representative for the Palestinians went at it Tuesday night. It was interesting, but nowhere near as fun as when Pincas goes up against Hasim Rahman on Hardball. The best step the Palestinians could take right now is...nothing. I personally think that the attack was a mistake and could lead to further attacks on Israelis. I hope I am wrong.

07-25-2002, 01:21 PM	#10
dave Guest Posts: n/a	Fine. We can do semantics. Show me Hamas' statement reading "We regret the loss" when referring to the innocent Israelis killed in a suicide bombing.

07-25-2002, 06:30 PM	#15
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	My question was specifically NOT answered by your graph dude. The legend at the bottom lists the sources, amidst which you find: Suicide attacks: Reuters (casualties exclude bombers). The number that I wanted remains hidden in the green bar: I want to know the number of Palestinians that have died or were killed in suicide bombing attacks or attempts. As far as your report goes: sorry man, no sale for me. Simply put, how huge would the international conspiracy have to be... that could keep this fact -- that IDF soldiers are routinely picking off civilians -- completely hidden from CNN, ABC, BBC, The New York Times, the Washington Post, the Associated Press, Reuters, and every other major news organization on the planet. I guess they could all be biased. But don't you think at least the French would have something on it?

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