Bush talks about religion, tones it down

Dagnabit · 02-03-2001, 04:13 PM

On Thursdayday a lot of the news outlets mentioned that Bush talked about religion for the fourth day in a row. What some of them didn't report was that he changed his tone in the fourth speech.

"We do not impose any religion. We welcome all religions. We do not proscribe any prayer. We welcome all prayer. This is the tradition of our nation. And it will be the standard of my administration," he said.

Pointing out that the Constitution forbids a religious test for office, Bush added: "And that's the way it should be. An American president serves people of every faith, and serves some with no faith at all."

I think that's promising, and it's a lot more open than something his father said once: "I don't believe an atheist can be a patriot. This is one country under God."

elSicomoro · 02-03-2001, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dagnabit
I think that's promising, and it's a lot more open than something his father said once: "I don't believe an atheist can be a patriot. This is one country under God."

Perhaps he realizes the potential for the pit bulls of the ACLU to come after him, so he covered his ass...a shrewd move.

What is it that they say about Republicans...the candidates are stupid but their staffs are smart as a whip?

alphageek31337 · 02-03-2001, 08:50 PM

This is more of a publicity thing than anything. His jackals-for-image have told him that he's pushing a little too hard, and some of the more militant groups already Fear & Loathe him. This type of thing is an incredibly far cry from an earlier standpoint that "Wicca is not a religion." And to think I, and eclectic Wiccan, almost supported this bigot...of course, I realized something this year: With all the hype and hooplah, nothing major has happened since the '60s...all we're really looking to find now is who we're going to bitch about for the next 4-8 years. But I rant...

In all seriousness, I genuinely fear the tacit (and sometimes not so tacit) religous influence that Dubya is bringing into office, but there's no way we can get rid of him now short of Sex, Lies, and Audiotape.

Chewbaccus · 03-01-2001, 07:51 AM

Apparently Bush is learning the cardinal rule of the common politician: Campaign promises mean squat.

Unlike my pseudo-Wiccan compadre there, I never really supported Stupid. (That's right. I call him Stupid as a regular name.) Nor did I support Gore. I was one of the few that early on realized the importantce, nay, the necessity to repeal the 22nd Amendment and bring back Bubba Clinton.

My mother, on the other hand, was taken in by Bush's claim to be a born-again Christian. (She's not native to the country. Have pity on her.) This development here should prove to her once and for all that she can't trust Stupid. To her ear, and mine as well to a degree, this sounds like a sizable step towards ecumenism which I oppose in just about any form. I don't impose my religion on others because I know it's not for them, just as they do the same for me. I like my religion, AlphaGeek likes his, and if someone tries to jam 'em together like an ill-fitting jigsaw puzzle, we're gonna raise hell.

But in the Wise Man's immortal words: That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

russotto · 03-01-2001, 07:46 PM

Bush never said "Wicca is not a religion". He said "I don't think witchcraft is a religion". Of course, he doesn't know the difference.

Note that Pat Robertson is wary of this faith-based initiative precisely on those grounds. So now Bush is getting it from all sides and figures it's time to drop that ball and run away.

Cerebus · 03-17-2001, 11:35 PM

Kind of like noting that the place where you live is in no way Holy Land. Because, let's face it, nothing devalues property quite like the presence of an active Deity. Between the plagues, wars, terrorism, wall-kissing, poor fashion sense, flaming shrubbery, spooky footwear, tacky icons, menacingly oversized statues, bad hair and demonic possessions, a Deity -- of any kind -- can really ruin your whole day. The trade-off in tourism really isn't worth it.

I'm sorry, but the day they start busing in deities to my neighborhood is the day I'm packing up and moving. I know, some of my best friends are all-powerful, but be truthful: would you want to live next door to one?

jaguar · 04-13-2001, 07:51 AM

Idealistic as it is, particular in a such religious conrtry as america the state and the chruch (no matter what church) shoudl be entirely seperate, nto joined at the hip, i mean as an althiest i find it hypoctirial to say freedom of religion and hten print money with 'in god we trust' on it
which even tho it oes not specify which god still implys one exists...i knwo i'm nit-picking but...=)

Griff · 04-16-2001, 07:44 AM

The kings gold the kings man. Religous organizations would be wise to avoid that embrace. "Here are your thirty pieces of silver Sister Mary Elephant, oh yah make sure you provide transportation to the abortion clinic..."

tw · 04-17-2001, 10:23 AM

Inside the Beltway are serious questions as to who really was in charge duringa China spy plane crisis. People keep asking what questions George Jr asked. We know he was immediately concerned that 24 Americans might not have access to Bibles. It is the questions he did not ask - and those first day White House statements - that have many asking what did George Jr ask. Where was his mindset?

Once Colin Powell took charge of negotiations, then all statements from the White House ceased - except carefully worded, pre-written statements. IOW then the right questions were being asked.

An $80million, super secret plane with 24 Americans is held in China - and the president is concerned with their access to Bibles? Where is the rational thought in that? It does make him look good to right wing religious extremists who were also advocating a military strike.

Scary that religious books are more important than the aircrew or $80million of secret electronics. Fortunately a man more interested in reality than in religious books took charge.

jaguar · 04-19-2001, 06:57 PM

Are you serious??? He was worried abotu bible access???????
If i was living in america today, i would be very, very scared. This guy has absolutely no idea about diplomacy(missle shield, koyoto, NATO etc) and is merely a puppet for convtive forces, if cherny kicks the bucket there gonna be huge problems, and i mean huge.

tw · 04-20-2001, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaguar
If i was living in america today, i would be very, very scared. This guy has absolutely no idea about diplomacy(missle shield, koyoto, NATO etc) and is merely a puppet for convtive forces, if cherny kicks the bucket there gonna be huge problems, and i mean huge.

Up to now, most don't realize how many bad decisions were made so quickly. From snubbing the German Chancellor. To encouraging the Isrealis to massacre Palestinians (which has the current Norwegian foreign minister so mad), to reviving tensions in Korea, to having Canada walk out of NORAD. To ignoring the Balkans which is right at the crisis point - this is the time that everything will work or fall apart.

Sadat of Egypt was in a hurry to meet with George Jr because he had to find out where this guy was coming from - so a radical change from Clinton who worked so well with everyone in the world.

Suddenly the new president has a new religion - environmentalism. After irrational, politically motivated, and not based on any science advisors - a decision to leave arsenic excessively high in western drinking water and to violate known science on Greenhouse gasses - suddenly the president hears gods rumbling. Suddenly he gets religion - reverses his arsenic decision declaring political half truths so that he does not have to admit he knew nothing about a subject he made decisions about.

Its a good thing that Colin Powell was there for the China crisis because the religious right moralists (Ashcroft, et al) would have us at war with China now over an airplane. That is why early White House statements only aggrevated the situation before Colin Powell could stop the religious extremist footstomping.

Religion is historically the source of the most destructive and deadly wars in the history of mankind. It is just what we don't want in political leaders.

The enemy of religion is scientific knowledge and logical thought. To appreciate that, study great Greek philosophers of the Socrates period - and how they destroyed Greek gods by just thinking logically.

Clinton's first two years were also very rocky. However Clinton did not alienate so many so quickly. But then George Jr's strongest support comes not from the center - but from people who would force their morals down everyone's throat.

Remember this line from a moral supporter of George Jr - "a man who marries outside his religion inherits the devil for a father-in-law". That advocates hate. That is a quote from the mouth of a right wing, Republican, religious leader - one of the George Jr supporters - and a primary example of why religion and religious leaders are so dangerous in politics.

Griff · 04-20-2001, 11:27 AM

edited for content

Government is historically the source of the most destructive and deadly wars in the history of mankind. It is just what we don't want, political leaders.

jaguar · 04-22-2001, 11:50 PM

Thankyou to the guy that quoted me, he made a better point of making the point iwas kinda making. BUt yes, religion and state are i agree, best kept seperate, most of hte longest and bloodiest conflicts (not WARS msot of the time) are religion based, balkans, kasmir, Northern ireland, and isrel to name a few, and in past and ancient time the acts commited in the name of 'god' are often by far the worst ever, from the slaughter of entire towns (in the bible) to torture, rape etc. THe point i'd like to make tho is that those acts often violate the laws of those religions. THer is nothing in the thorah about destroying womens right for instance. Religion is used as acover for thsoe wishing to commit terible acts, look at norther ireland, its obvious some factions will not stop spreading terorr, becuse THEY LIKE IT, slayings in Ambon, Indonseia are commited in in the name of islam (and christian god) are jsut an excuseto kill people, to vent anger over other issues, to rape, pillage and plunder. The biggest pandoras box we ever opened was religion, hoefuly rational, logical thought and science can eventully close it again. The other point i'd like to make is that religion thse days seems to be either becoming really, really weak, encompassing everyhting and anyhting or really, really hardcore, its a cover for people insecurity's, and its dangerous.

Chewbaccus · 04-23-2001, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by jaguar
Are you serious??? He was worried abotu bible access???????
If i was living in america today, i would be very, very scared. This guy has absolutely no idea about diplomacy(missle shield, koyoto, NATO etc) and is merely a puppet for convtive forces, if cherny kicks the bucket there gonna be huge problems, and i mean huge.

That's the scenario that I and my other Democratic friend have cooked up(not Alphageek). Cheney kicks it, or is decided to be unfit to remain in office, and Bush calls up Jedi Knight Ashcroft to replace him.

In that case, we're going to the Capitol OURSELVES and lead the Democrats against the decision. If we fail, hey, I have an aunt in Montreal. For those of you that don't have relatives in foreign countries, keep your heads down, eventually it will blow over.

~Mike

Griff · 04-23-2001, 11:44 AM

Nice catch jag. The combination of church and state is where we get enough concentration of power that conflict can escalate to large scale war. When you get a powerful figure like Ian Paisley (and whoever fits the bill on the other side) in Northern Ireland who combines hate, religion and (British) nationalism you get the worst kind of war, one without an obvious rational way out (not that war is ever really rational). Oddly, for all the religious conflict in Ireland, Irish nationalism originally crossed sectarian lines. Although nominally a religious nation, the US is a long way from a theocracy since we have many sects with competing interests. In the States, religion is one source of political power, Like any other group, say corporations or unions, they are healthier when they keep their distance from the state. Religions when respectful of the rights of others can be good for individuals and society, but are a complete disaster as political master.

02-03-2001, 08:50 PM	#3
alphageek31337 Enemy Combatant/Evildoer Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Pittsburgh, PA Posts: 263	Re: Bush on religion This is more of a publicity thing than anything. His jackals-for-image have told him that he's pushing a little too hard, and some of the more militant groups already Fear & Loathe him. This type of thing is an incredibly far cry from an earlier standpoint that "Wicca is not a religion." And to think I, and eclectic Wiccan, almost supported this bigot...of course, I realized something this year: With all the hype and hooplah, nothing major has happened since the '60s...all we're really looking to find now is who we're going to bitch about for the next 4-8 years. But I rant... In all seriousness, I genuinely fear the tacit (and sometimes not so tacit) religous influence that Dubya is bringing into office, but there's no way we can get rid of him now short of Sex, Lies, and Audiotape. __________________ The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself. ---Friedrich Nietzsche

03-17-2001, 11:35 PM	#6
Cerebus Dog O'Nine Tails Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: NoCal Posts: 20	Your safest statement on religion is, of course, none. Kind of like noting that the place where you live is in no way Holy Land. Because, let's face it, nothing devalues property quite like the presence of an active Deity. Between the plagues, wars, terrorism, wall-kissing, poor fashion sense, flaming shrubbery, spooky footwear, tacky icons, menacingly oversized statues, bad hair and demonic possessions, a Deity -- of any kind -- can really ruin your whole day. The trade-off in tourism really isn't worth it. I'm sorry, but the day they start busing in deities to my neighborhood is the day I'm packing up and moving. I know, some of my best friends are all-powerful, but be truthful: would you want to live next door to one? __________________ DMt / Omi / Cerebus / Ah Shaddup

04-13-2001, 07:51 AM	#7
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	religion \| state Idealistic as it is, particular in a such religious conrtry as america the state and the chruch (no matter what church) shoudl be entirely seperate, nto joined at the hip, i mean as an althiest i find it hypoctirial to say freedom of religion and hten print money with 'in god we trust' on it which even tho it oes not specify which god still implys one exists...i knwo i'm nit-picking but...=) __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

04-17-2001, 10:23 AM	#9
tw Read? I only know how to write. Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 11,933	Re: Bush talks about religion, tones it down Inside the Beltway are serious questions as to who really was in charge duringa China spy plane crisis. People keep asking what questions George Jr asked. We know he was immediately concerned that 24 Americans might not have access to Bibles. It is the questions he did not ask - and those first day White House statements - that have many asking what did George Jr ask. Where was his mindset? Once Colin Powell took charge of negotiations, then all statements from the White House ceased - except carefully worded, pre-written statements. IOW then the right questions were being asked. An $80million, super secret plane with 24 Americans is held in China - and the president is concerned with their access to Bibles? Where is the rational thought in that? It does make him look good to right wing religious extremists who were also advocating a military strike. Scary that religious books are more important than the aircrew or $80million of secret electronics. Fortunately a man more interested in reality than in religious books took charge.

04-19-2001, 06:57 PM	#10
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	OMG Are you serious??? He was worried abotu bible access??????? If i was living in america today, i would be very, very scared. This guy has absolutely no idea about diplomacy(missle shield, koyoto, NATO etc) and is merely a puppet for convtive forces, if cherny kicks the bucket there gonna be huge problems, and i mean huge. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

02-03-2001, 04:13 PM	#1
Dagnabit High Propagandist Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 115	On Thursdayday a lot of the news outlets mentioned that Bush talked about religion for the fourth day in a row. What some of them didn't report was that he changed his tone in the fourth speech. "We do not impose any religion. We welcome all religions. We do not proscribe any prayer. We welcome all prayer. This is the tradition of our nation. And it will be the standard of my administration," he said. Pointing out that the Constitution forbids a religious test for office, Bush added: "And that's the way it should be. An American president serves people of every faith, and serves some with no faith at all." I think that's promising, and it's a lot more open than something his father said once: "I don't believe an atheist can be a patriot. This is one country under God."

03-01-2001, 07:51 AM	#4
Chewbaccus Freethinker/booter Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 523	Apparently Bush is learning the cardinal rule of the common politician: Campaign promises mean squat. Unlike my pseudo-Wiccan compadre there, I never really supported Stupid. (That's right. I call him Stupid as a regular name.) Nor did I support Gore. I was one of the few that early on realized the importantce, nay, the necessity to repeal the 22nd Amendment and bring back Bubba Clinton. My mother, on the other hand, was taken in by Bush's claim to be a born-again Christian. (She's not native to the country. Have pity on her.) This development here should prove to her once and for all that she can't trust Stupid. To her ear, and mine as well to a degree, this sounds like a sizable step towards ecumenism which I oppose in just about any form. I don't impose my religion on others because I know it's not for them, just as they do the same for me. I like my religion, AlphaGeek likes his, and if someone tries to jam 'em together like an ill-fitting jigsaw puzzle, we're gonna raise hell. But in the Wise Man's immortal words: That's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

03-01-2001, 07:46 PM	#5
russotto Professor Join Date: Jan 2001 Posts: 1,788	Bush never said "Wicca is not a religion". He said "I don't think witchcraft is a religion". Of course, he doesn't know the difference. Note that Pat Robertson is wary of this faith-based initiative precisely on those grounds. So now Bush is getting it from all sides and figures it's time to drop that ball and run away.

04-16-2001, 07:44 AM	#8
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	The kings gold the kings man. Religous organizations would be wise to avoid that embrace. "Here are your thirty pieces of silver Sister Mary Elephant, oh yah make sure you provide transportation to the abortion clinic..."

04-20-2001, 11:27 AM	#12
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	edited for content Government is historically the source of the most destructive and deadly wars in the history of mankind. It is just what we don't want, political leaders.

04-22-2001, 11:50 PM	#13
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Religion Thankyou to the guy that quoted me, he made a better point of making the point iwas kinda making. BUt yes, religion and state are i agree, best kept seperate, most of hte longest and bloodiest conflicts (not WARS msot of the time) are religion based, balkans, kasmir, Northern ireland, and isrel to name a few, and in past and ancient time the acts commited in the name of 'god' are often by far the worst ever, from the slaughter of entire towns (in the bible) to torture, rape etc. THe point i'd like to make tho is that those acts often violate the laws of those religions. THer is nothing in the thorah about destroying womens right for instance. Religion is used as acover for thsoe wishing to commit terible acts, look at norther ireland, its obvious some factions will not stop spreading terorr, becuse THEY LIKE IT, slayings in Ambon, Indonseia are commited in in the name of islam (and christian god) are jsut an excuseto kill people, to vent anger over other issues, to rape, pillage and plunder. The biggest pandoras box we ever opened was religion, hoefuly rational, logical thought and science can eventully close it again. The other point i'd like to make is that religion thse days seems to be either becoming really, really weak, encompassing everyhting and anyhting or really, really hardcore, its a cover for people insecurity's, and its dangerous. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

04-23-2001, 11:44 AM	#15
Griff still says videotape Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 26,813	Nice catch jag. The combination of church and state is where we get enough concentration of power that conflict can escalate to large scale war. When you get a powerful figure like Ian Paisley (and whoever fits the bill on the other side) in Northern Ireland who combines hate, religion and (British) nationalism you get the worst kind of war, one without an obvious rational way out (not that war is ever really rational). Oddly, for all the religious conflict in Ireland, Irish nationalism originally crossed sectarian lines. Although nominally a religious nation, the US is a long way from a theocracy since we have many sects with competing interests. In the States, religion is one source of political power, Like any other group, say corporations or unions, they are healthier when they keep their distance from the state. Religions when respectful of the rights of others can be good for individuals and society, but are a complete disaster as political master.

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