3/4/2004: Ashoura 2004

[novice]

Spiritualism, theology, cultural differences and philosophy aside, what about the REAL danger of infection.
I've just recovered from a stapphlycoccal (Kiss my arse, spellcheck) infection and apparently it only needs a tiny break in the skin to enter. In 24 hrs it got in, swelled my foot to roughly double then spread up to my knee. Being navy I was seen immediately and hospitalised. 9 days later I was clean.
I've been to quite a few places in the middle East and my sweeping generalisation involves poor hygiene and a lousy medical infrastructure.
Rational thought aside, this ritual offends my sensibilities.

[wolf]

Originally posted by glatt
It's another cuture. Try to keep an open mind.

Would this be the culture that also practices female genital mutlation?

Oh, just as an aside, it is unwise to anger one's gods.

[wolf]

Found an interesting (and brief) article on the Muslim perspective of circumcision.

I was actually looking to confirm at what age the procedure is performed ... the Jewish bris occurs 8 days following the birth of the child, US hospitals do the medical circumcisions shortly after delivery. I had thought that the Muslim rite was performed in early adolescence as part of the 'manhood' rituals. Guess Alec Hailey sold us all a bill of goods ... actually the age of circumcision does vary, but this guy indicates it's "within the early few years of age". I did see some statements from men who had it done around age 12-13. The practice is apparently optional for adult converts.

[paranoid]

1 second: I am slightly disturbed, because I am genetically programmed to like kids and care about them.
10 seconds: I read the explanation and realise that kids are apparently not suffereing too much.
15 seconds: I feel the urge to judge them, but quickly remember the idea of cross-cultural tolerance.
20 seconds: I compare this with other rituals, such as circumcision and come to a conclusion that this is not worse.
21 seconds: but it is just as bad. Being religious and irrational, this ritual is clearly very bad. Still, on the grand scale of things, USian president mentioning god in every speech is definitely much worse and much more dangerous.
25: I decide to no worry about this particular cult. There are too many things wrong on this planet (university students not knowing basic math is one of them) and I can't fix all of them immediately. People cutting the heads of their children will have to wait.

[paranoid]

Originally posted by Shattered Soul
Well there you go. MY point was that you were making a sweeping accusation of silliness and stupidity of all those who DO believe in something that you do not believe in. Merely because you do not believe in it and cannot prove it does not make it silly or false.

Religion is more than that. If someone believes in something which is not proved, it's ok with me. If someone believes in something which I don't believe in, I am fine with that. But when someone believes in something which contradicts pretty much everything we know and is logically inconsistant, I think they are being silly and stupid.

I am comfortable with people believing that the Big Bang was caused by God, who stopped interfering later. But pretty much all modern religions include beliefs in supernatural stuff, which usually contradicts everything we know and love about this Universe.

In addition to that, science knows enough about religion to understand how it may have emerged and evolved. We can see how Islam and Christianity modified the myths of earlier religions, which in turn, were born out of very early myths.

So, to conclude:
1) religion contradicts reality
2) we understand how religion emerges and god has nothing to do with it
3) and an obvious additional point: there are thousands of religions, all contradicting each other. Simple logic dictates that the majority of them is wrong.

[CzinZumerzet]

Some people on this god forsaken planet are very different to others. DIFFERENT. JUST DIFFERENT. Some of you believe that being different to you, gives you the absolute right to blow them to pieces. God has nothing whatever to do with this. I know where my sympathy lies and it is not with mindless yes mindless killers. If the cap fits.

[mrnoodle]

Originally posted by paranoid

So, to conclude:
1) religion contradicts reality
2) we understand how religion emerges and god has nothing to do with it
3) and an obvious additional point: there are thousands of religions, all contradicting each other. Simple logic dictates that the majority of them is wrong.

To reply:
1) Overly simplistic. Reality itself is subjective to the person experiencing the reality. Truth, on the other hand....

2) God has everything to do with it. Religion is man's attempt to understand God. While anthropologists might be able to come up with theories on the origin of religion, that doesn't mean that the origins themselves weren't divinely inspired. However,

3) is correct. If one of the religions is true, the rest must be false. Either that, or there is no God.

Sheesh, no wonder nobody gets along.

Myself, I think there's enough historical evidence for the prophecies in the Christian bible to lend credence to that religion. It holds up logically in theological debate as well, but no religion can be PROVEN true through debate. You just have to weigh the evidence and decide for yourself if something MIGHT be likely to be true. Weee

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by mrnoodle

To reply:
1) Overly simplistic. Reality itself is subjective to the person experiencing the reality. Truth, on the other hand....

Reality is not subjective. How that reality is defined is what is subjective. Rain falls, lightning crashes, and babies are born regardles of whether we choose to experience it or not.

And what about truth?

Originally posted by mrnoodle

2) God has everything to do with it. Religion is man's attempt to understand God. While anthropologists might be able to come up with theories on the origin of religion, that doesn't mean that the origins themselves weren't divinely inspired.

Religion is man's attempt to rationalize an unknown and apparently uncaring world into sometheing where he has some control or consolation.

Religion is also a social control tool that came about in the place of government or to replace, resist, assist government

Originally posted by mrnoodle

3) is correct. If one of the religions is true, the rest must be false. Either that, or there is no God.

There is no guarantee that any one of them is true.

Originally posted by mrnoodle

Myself, I think there's enough historical evidence for the prophecies in the Christian bible to lend credence to that religion. It holds up logically in theological debate as well, but no religion can be PROVEN true through debate. You just have to weigh the evidence and decide for yourself if something MIGHT be likely to be true. Weee

If you think that what proof has been given is sufficient then more power to you, but if you dig a little deeper then you find that most of the myths of the bible are pulled from an earlier religion in the first place so wouldn't that then lend more credence to the earlier religions instead?

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by wolf


Would this be the culture that also practices female genital mutlation?

Oh, just as an aside, it is unwise to anger one's gods.

There are others that do it as well. I can't recall the various ones but there was a guy in New York who got busted for using scissors to saw his daughers labia off.

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally posted by lumberjim
whoa.

sidhe,

what the..?

trying to compete with staceyv? you saw how much fun it has been for her, i presume. You sure you want to bring this online?

I'm not bringing it online. I'm treating him the way he treats his wife and child. I can be as indifferent as he can, and I'm through being considerate when I get no consideration in return. And I'm through taking the blame.

I always supported him, right or wrong, because he was my husband, and because I love him, and that's what you do for people you love. Since he's decided that the love of his family comes last, and means nothing to him, why bother? He doesn't acknowledge it, and he pushes it away. So why defend someone who refuses to take responsibility for his family and would rather throw it away so that he can do his thing?

So from now on, I'm going to let you know when he's being a hypocrite. And he is being a hypocrite. He's spouting all of this lofty moral BS, and that's all it is to him. I really don't think, from what I've seen, that he believes in any kind of morality other than the situational kind. One set of rules applies to the world, and another set applies to him.

Sidhe

[Lady Sidhe]

You know what, everyone? I'm sorry. You're right. I shouldn't bring this online. I'm just so frustrated and hurt that I want everyone to know how he really is, as opposed to how he portrays himself. He's so worried about the image he puts forth to y'all that he's willing to hurt his wife to make it.

Don't get me wrong. He can be a good man...used to be a good man, back when he cared about other people. I don't know where that man went, though, and he won't let me talk to him.

If he has no regard for the feelings of others, then there's no reason anyone else should hold their tongue in regards to him. And I won't. I'm through putting his welfare above mine. I've done it for five years, only to get blamed for his indescretions.


Anyway...sorry. But I'm not going to let him get away with being a hypocrite.

Sidhe

[lumberjim]

ok, so you DO want to bring it online.


~~~fade in harps~~~~

And so begins another chapter of "As the Cellar Turns".

[Lady Sidhe]

Nope. I'm just not going to hold my tongue when he outright BS's people, like I used to.

No, actually, I'll just let him spout. Yeah, that's better...because I'll look bad no matter what I do. I seem to have earned a place as an idiot/drama queen, and the last thing I want to do is give anyone ammunition. His sarcastic comment against me had everyone cheering him on, so I know where I stand. Anything I say will be misconstrued as bitterness, so I'm better off just not saying anything.

But I must say, he's pretty popular for a man everyone was vilifying in "need advice."


I've tried to be nice, but it's hard to be nice when you're hurting.

Shutting up.


Sidhe

[jaguar]

oh FOR FUCKS SAKE.

Can we at least keep all these bloody personal spats in threads in the home forum so the rest of us can ignore them? It's like a bunch of white trash having a domestic in the middle of a supermarket.




oh and troubleshooter:

Reality is not subjective. How that reality is defined is what is subjective. Rain falls, lightning crashes, and babies are born regardles of whether we choose to experience it or not.

i suggest a reading of Plato's cave.

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally posted by jaguar
oh FOR FUCKS SAKE.

Can we at least keep all these bloody personal spats in threads in the home forum so the rest of us can ignore them? It's like a bunch of white trash having a domestic in the middle of a supermarket.

Yes. I'm sorry. You're right. It's inappropriate, and I apologize to everyone. No more personals. I promise. Cross my heart.

Sidhe