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Old 07-01-2016, 07:51 AM   #91
Undertoad
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I admit I don't know how a country should be run, but it is very interesting how many people are saying DEMOCRACY has failed.

If the vote doesn't go a certain way the most important thing to do is override it. Or vote again until we get it right. Because the people were fooled, misled, and mistaken. Or there weren't enough of them. Or they are too ignorant, in different ways, to be trusted.

I guess I'm with you on this. But I'm not sure how hating on the vote itself, more than the result, is going to work out.
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Old 07-01-2016, 09:07 AM   #92
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If the vote doesn't go a certain way the most important thing to do is override it. Or vote again until we get it right.
Redoing a referendum is a dangerous precedence. Do other avenues exist in UK constitutional laws (a rather unique expression from UK politicians since the UK has no Constitution)? Is anyone in the UK even discussing this?
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Old 07-01-2016, 01:13 PM   #93
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Unfortunately that is the nature of an election (or referendum). Everyone takes responsibility (or blame) for the results. We (all Americans) massacred 5000 American soldiers for no purpose in Iraq. Completely irrelevant whether I said George Jr (actually Cheney) was a liar. We all decided to massacre them for no useful purpose. We all take blame because a majority did not try to protect them.
I know - you're quite right. It still rankles with me though :P

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All Britains must now take responsibility for those consequences (or flee to Scotland and demand succession or flee to the EU as an immigrant). You do have options.
Aside from the fact all my friends and family are here - and the total lack of anything approaching adequate funds to move house ... Yorkshire is my home. Were I inclined to up sticks once the country runs aground, I'd have done so the moment the Tories got into power. All the shit that has happened to my country - and my class, was depressingly predictable once they were given free reign.

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Does a UK citizenship still provide some rights or privileges in Canada?
Don't know. Probably not ;p
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Old 07-01-2016, 01:35 PM   #94
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Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
I admit I don't know how a country should be run, but it is very interesting how many people are saying DEMOCRACY has failed.

If the vote doesn't go a certain way the most important thing to do is override it. Or vote again until we get it right. Because the people were fooled, misled, and mistaken. Or there weren't enough of them. Or they are too ignorant, in different ways, to be trusted.

I guess I'm with you on this. But I'm not sure how hating on the vote itself, more than the result, is going to work out.
There are several reasons why people are saying that democracy failed. In terms of the people being misled - yes, they absolutely were. The twomain planks of the Leave campaign have been disavowed by the Leave campaigners now that the vote is done. A significant proportion of voters voted without really knowing anything about it. Many of those voters have since declared that they regret voting the way they did, did not expect it to actually turn into a win for Brexit, would like a do-over knowing now what they do.

A large number, possibly majority, of those voting to leave the EU were using this referendum as a protest vote having felt utterly disenfranchised and left behind by successive governments and oppositions. Democracy had already failed them and this was their expression of dissatisfaction at that failure.

There was no need for a referendum. What was needed was an actual conversation about immigration and about investment in infrastructure and jobs. Instead, governments and oppositions have, for quite some time now, used 'standing up to Brussels' as a way to look strong at election time, or 'not standing up to Brussels' as a scourge for the incumbent party. Nobody in a leadership role has been willing to seriously engage with the benefits of EU membership, or tackle the wildly inaccurate coverage of EU matters in the media. The opening to the final act in this particular frenzy, was the Prime Minister promising a referendum on EU membership in order to bolster his standing coming into an election, a promise that it would be a simple 'in - out' question - because, hey, we really don't want to complicate such an important question of our national future with any kind of nuance*, and was then followed up by leading Tories winding up the Leave campaign in order to cause political damage to the current PM and bolster their chances of winning the leadership election that will follow Cameron's demise.

The leading Brexit campaigner - Boris Johnson, has been previously fired from two jobs, one in journalism and one in politics, for lying. He is one of the biggest sellers of tabloid 'EU rules' lies (straight bananas and prawn cocktail crisps being the most well-known) in the game. Within a few days of winning, he'd been ousted by his former supporter, and didn't really put up much of a fight. In fact he's been strangely absent from much of the fuss in the immediate aftermath - he didn't for example attend the commons debate in the wake of the referendum results. Where was he/ Playing fucking cricket.

This small group of men, most of whom attended the same schools as each other, have played an elaborate game of chicken with each other They've shattered our country in order to play their game.



Nobody expected this to happen. The people who put it out to the electorate expected a narrow win for remain. On both sides. It wasn't meant to happen. It was a political football and nobody expected to actually score a goal with it. I don't think many people who voted Leave actually thought we would. We are so jaded as a democracy that we have a default expectation that nothing will really change. So many people have expressed surprise that Brexit won and their vote was a part of making it so, and many of them have also expressed sorrow that such a thing was allowed to happen. because they weren't really voting on the EU, they were voting against the government and opposition - they were voting against Westminster politics and the politicians who have failed them. Actually leaving Europe wasn't part of the plan for a lot of people who voted to leave.

* For something that could have such a profound impact on the country's future there is also a strong argument for a two-thirds or 60% majority required for change.
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Last edited by DanaC; 07-01-2016 at 01:55 PM.
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Old 07-01-2016, 04:33 PM   #95
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What was needed was an actual conversation about immigration and about investment in infrastructure and jobs. Instead, governments and oppositions have, for quite some time now, used 'standing up to Brussels' as a way to look strong at election time, or 'not standing up to Brussels' as a scourge for the incumbent party. Nobody in a leadership role has been willing to seriously engage with the benefits of EU membership, or tackle the wildly inaccurate coverage of EU matters in the media. The opening to the final act in this particular frenzy, was the Prime Minister promising a referendum on EU membership in order to bolster his standing coming into an election, a promise that it would be a simple 'in - out' question - because, hey, we really don't want to complicate such an important question of our national future with any kind of nuance*, and was then followed up by leading Tories winding up the Leave campaign in order to cause political damage to the current PM and bolster their chances of winning the leadership election that will follow Cameron's demise.
That right there is probably a best summary of what just happened. I have never heard is summarized better.
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Old 07-01-2016, 04:40 PM   #96
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They were lied To? They let themselves be lied to because they were too lazy to find out what was really going on. I'm familiar with the problem, we have it big time.
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Old 07-02-2016, 10:02 AM   #97
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I'm working on keeping some of you Brits in the EU.
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Old 07-02-2016, 02:47 PM   #98
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It surely should have required a supermajority. I'm trying to imagine what it would take here. A Constitutional Amendment requires two-thirds vote of the House and Senate, followed by 38 out of 50 states' agreement.

But a treaty only requires two-thirds of the Senate and consent of the Pres. So economic, military, strategic partnerships can happen with a much lower bar to cross.

Like, Canada and Mexico and the US said, "OK now trade is free so bring it on" with just the Senate and Pres. But we couldn't say to Canada and Mexico, "OK, now we are together and just called 'North America' with a new set of rules and people who enforce them", without an amendment at least.

OTOH if they wanted to become US States, and asked nicely, willing to play by our rules, it only takes an act of Congress.

So I guess what I'm saying is, hey Britain, if you really want to play big time... really want to say Fuck You to the frogs in a biiiig way,...and yet still be non-racist and allow a good number of immigrants, State #51 is England and #52 is Wales.

You can change the order if you like. Up to you.

It's been inevitable for a long time. Just finally admit it. We love you, and you love us but kinda not so much. You like us but you don't like like us. We'll be a big dysfunctional family -- which really, we are used to, have you met us?

I know the Scots will not go for it. Not even asking. And Ireland, well, they can either be 53, or 53 and 54, however they want. Of course there will be no official state religion, so might as well go 53.

Hint hint, we would do it just for Bermuda. Have you been? So very nice. So very strategic.
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Old 07-02-2016, 02:59 PM   #99
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P.S. July 4 is Monday if you can get a vote together by then. Have you tried grilling? Do you have a back yard?
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Old 07-02-2016, 04:28 PM   #100
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Oh man! Can you imagine Brits having to celebrate their new national holiday, July 4th? I almost think they'd appreciate the self-flagellating irony.
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Old 07-02-2016, 08:15 PM   #101
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Old 07-02-2016, 08:19 PM   #102
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dudes...... a referendum does not create law in the UK. It's just guidance for the government. There have to be politicians in power who agree to act on it. Cameron said he'd push the button immediately if Leave won, but he lied. I think there has to be an act of parliament to push the button. I'd be surpirsed if that happens
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Old 07-02-2016, 09:07 PM   #103
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Cameron is just a front man for the Silence.
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Old 07-04-2016, 11:40 AM   #104
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a referendum does not create law in the UK. It's just guidance for the government. There have to be politicians in power who agree to act on it.
Could that be Britain's out?

Cameron said he would not exercise Article 50. Leaving a next PM to implement it in November. Was that strategy to let cooler heads prevail and then ignore the referendum? Interesting comment. They cannot ignore Propositions in California. But they can ignore a referendum in Britain.
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Old 07-04-2016, 11:47 AM   #105
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Britain cannot be state #51. Puerto Rico has dibs on that number.

Bermuda - the east coast version of Hawaii. And Iceland - the new Alaska. So much work to be done. Where do so many new stars go on the flag? Pax Americana.
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