Fort Hood stuff is happening!

[Spexxvet]

Originally Posted by TheMercenary

Which is why the latest plans for a troop surge, ala Iraq, will not work IMHO.

Nothing initiated by Obama or a Democrat will work, IYHO.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

The Democratic Presidential record for the last two generations is pretty hard to argue with, Spexx. Martial victory just isn't in these guys, not since Kennedy, and actual military victory under a Democratic President hasn't happened since Truman's first term.

So if it's important to anybody to destroy undemocratic regimes, it's important to keep Democrats out of the Oval Office and install war winners there instead. Bush isn't getting a lot of credit, but he seems to have laid the proper groundwork, sufficient to The Continuing Crisis.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by ZenGum

Don't lecture me about goals. I don't want the talleban or anyone like them in charge of anything any more than you do. It is just that your methods of achieving the goals are hopeless; futile and counterproductive.

And your methods are... invisible. You cannot bring yourself to actually fight the people who are fighting you. Dead oppressors cannot oppress anything but the nose. I don't believe you should discount that.

Abu Ghraib is something nobody in the Muslim world seems to give two cents about. They do know something about getting tortured, you know... and they could see there was nary a bruise, let along a burn or scrape, on anyone in the pictures. Reaction, thus, has been very properly muted. You're more excited about it than they seem to be -- so who is more discombobulated by Abu Ghraib? Them -- or you?

Excuses and rationalizations by agitators, serving their inexplicit agendas, are another matter -- but a matter that is not only invisible on the ground, but doesn't even seem on the horizon.

I don't see that we'd even notice if our foes worked up any greater hatred for us than they already have. In any case, their hatred seems very generalized, as busy as they are blowing up those coreligionists who don't subscribe to their particular mindset, and who are getting killed for the unpardonable offense of being more sensible than the terrs. Longterm, terrorism always collapses, failing. It usually starts with a governmental sponsor, and part of the counterinsurgency campaign is to pry the sponsor away from the terrorists. This is one of those "root causes" that get so vaguely mentioned by people wishing to appear wise. Part of the job is to uproot that cause.

Zen, our troubles stem entirely from undemocratic social orders. Their circles of power are going to be anti-American regardless, viewing the democratic ruleset (such as America powerfully and successfully exemplifies) as a threat to their privileged positions. And it is that -- as far as that goes. What such autocrats and oligarchs miss is the mass prosperity the democratic/free-markets ruleset always engenders, and they miss perceiving a chance to ride this wave to success.

All this is quite independent of what their subject populations think, and aren't allowed to mention. This is a point that gives the world's Core States much to be optimistic about, especially in the long run. Some figure that the effective road to democratization is economic opportunity, development, freedom, and that this shall lead to more distribution of political power in accord with the broadening of economic power.

You're trying harder than the case merits to make me out some kind of sadistic simpleton. I am neither, so I will lecture you on goals, inasmuch as you're not formulating anything much and I am willing to at least try. You could at least try studying on counterinsurgencies. Australia was instrumental in conducting one in Indonesia, postwar.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

I think the US is thinking much more long-term then we realize. . . But I am more and more curious on whether our long term goal is to completely pacify Afghanistan or just pacify them enough to be able to set up our bases there.

The longterm goal we should pursue will be taking Afghanistan out of the Non-Integrating Gap states. This is a longterm goal indeed, as there are few countries less promising for this kind of development, in its extreme political disunity (not fully appreciated by the nation states trying to deal with it) and its extreme want of institutions of security -- they feud, and that is a fair litmus test. The place is less a nation than it is a reservation for assorted non-nationalized tribes. Initial progress is only going to be piecemeal. For actual signs of true success, look for enlarging and diversifying economies, first local, then regional, only finally national. When there are more ways to make real money than growing poppies for the opium trade, guess what.

[Tuba Loons]

whoa, battle of the tl;dr wingnut

I dunno, guise. He's got a low UID buuuuuut . . . I like the dopey fartsy granola side of the cellar bettar. I can't get that uptight.

[ZenGum]

Tuba, I suggest you avoid the politcs and current events fora until you've got your bearings a bit. Homebase and Nothingland are good fun. Mostly.

[Tuba Loons]

It's ok, I can handle it.

I just wanted to let you know I thought it was lame.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Bush isn't getting a lot of credit, but he seems to have laid the proper groundwork, sufficient to The Continuing Crisis.

Yes, he did a wonderful job of laying the groundwork for continuing crisis.

[Tuba Loons]

My goodness!

I was so hungry for a solid basis for my Crisis Groundwork that I voted for Rove for Prezidink.

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

The Democratic Presidential record for the last two generations is pretty hard to argue with, Spexx. Martial victory just isn't in these guys, not since Kennedy, and actual military victory under a Democratic President hasn't happened since Truman's first term.

Man did we ever kick ass in Grenada!

[Urbane Guerrilla]

Hey, no need to play the ace if the two will do it, Griff -- whattaya want already, the Apocalypse? I'm as happy with it as any antitotalitarian person of freedom should be. Shut the Cubans up nicely, as I recall, and that's just how I want them until Raúl dies or leaves office and takes the Bad Religion of Communism with him. He's too old, too set in his ways, and too Third World Despot to pull a Gorbachev/Yel'tsyn and yank the lid right off.

[ZenGum]

Originally Posted by Tuba Loons

It's ok, I can handle it.
.

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!!!!

j/k, it just fitted so well.

Yeah some of these goats have been butting heads for so long there isn't much left to say outside neiner neiner neiner!

[Griff]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Hey, no need to play the ace if the two will do it, Griff -- whattaya want already, the Apocalypse?

Actually, that was the last time the Republicans won a war. The previous being the time they took down the Republic for good or ill.

[Urbane Guerrilla]

I dunno; I keep seeing Republican Presidents thinking at least somewhat Libertarian. Reagan, despite his measure of statism, does come to mind. The Donkey Party? Not even close. Tens of lightyears out.

[Tuba Loons]

Cuba is down there at the bottom of the list below abortion and faggots as far as things that actually affect my life so much I need to complain about it.

I have no idea how these distant and nebulous concepts inspire so many blowhards.