11/4/2002: Gay Games open

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by dave
okay, so "Brandon" was living as a man, but... had a vagina.

Well, I lived as a woman for a year before my surgery, it's a requirement. I certainly didn't have a vagina then. I'm sure Brandon didn't think of himself as a lesbian, and neither did his girlfriend. I can't see any justification for calling their relationship a lesbian relationship.

Many--but certainly not all--transsexuals are pretty much sexually abstinent until after reassignment surgery. Brandon's vagina was pretty much irrelevant to his life at the time he was murdered, since he apparently wans't having sex--or at least intercourse-- with anybody....unless you count the two guys who raped him "to prove to her she was a woman", of course.

A transsexual friend of mine once said "It's not about who you go to bed with. It's about who you go to bed <b>as</b>, in referring to her own transsexuality.

I've had straight relationships as a guy, straight relationships as a woman, lesbian relationships, and one or two relationships that could fairly be called male homosexual (although they were pretty clumsy and really didn't work out very well, not surprisingly). I've had people who were clearly being female when they slept with me go on to at least hormonal reassignment to male (broke my heart too, "she" was damned cute). I think I've got a pretty good handle on what a "lesbian relationship" is and isn't.

Again, remeber I said "referenced to their desired sex". If it makes you feel better to think of Brandon as a lesbian, go ahead, but it's pretty clear *Brandon* didn't think of himself that way, and his girlfriend had no idea he was born female, so I don't see how she's a lesbian either.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by philgump
Well, I am not going to bring anyone around to my way of thinking...not that I would even try. I guess I was just born in the wrong age....I just see people following MaggieL's way of thinking about being touchy feely and making sure we don't hurt anyones feelings. ....

You really are a conundrum, philgump. You claim to be a gay male yourself, and yet your rhetoric drips with every homophobic cliche in the book. This is why I suggested counselling, because if you really belive the things you've said about gay men and yet are one yourself, I can't fathom how you can live with yourself.

Perhaps you <i>were</i> born in the wrong age...your point of view would seem to fit much better in the homogenized world of 1950's culture. And yet you claim to be young enough to be my kid--I was old enough to drink the year your profile says you were born.

Where you get "touchy-feely" in relation to me I have no idea. Most of the kiddies here seem to think I'm a ultra-conservative right-wing old fart. But I do agree with Frank Zappa when he said "Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible." I don't believe that just because someone will hate me for being different justifies their hatred, or most especially justifies them *acting* out of that hatred.

It's certainly not a good reason for me to pretend I'm *not* different. If someone is unable to accept that there are differences among people without dissolving in rage, it's not my job to enable them to continue in their fantasy world undisturbed.

[philgump]

"...I suggested counselling, because if you really belive the things you've said about gay men and yet are one yourself, I can't fathom how you can live with yourself. "

Well when I describe other gays I am not describing myself, I do not prance around with one wrist limp, with a lisp and saying things like "Girl you better work", "Okay Girlfriend" and "Faaaaabulous". If everyone should be himself why is it a large majority of gays act like every other gay that adore Barbara Streisand, Judy Garland, and let's not forget Dorothy and the Wizard of OZ. I do not cock my head to one side, snap my fingers and say things like mmmmmmhhhhmm, all right child work it. If these people wanted to "INVOKE THEIR INDIVIDUALITY”, then why do most drag queens look like one another. Why if they a 'woman trapped in a mans body' do they dress like Tammy Faye blew up on them. I have to say that is NOT normal for a straight woman OR a transgendered wo(man). If you want to know why I think they do these things. Attention! They want to be in the lime light. They want to scream at the world look at me, look at me, and then when the world does look at them a say "YUCK" they say how dare you judge me! Well, welcome to the lime light that is the price you pay for getting noticed. Every person who is been in the lime light will agree that your life is under the microscope and people are just waiting for you to f**k it all up.

I choose to live the life of a true individual, I like music because I like it, even though it may not be popular (They Might Be Giants and Dead Lizards) not because if I don't peers will say "that lame ass shit, whatever Mary", I like movies because they inspire me to think (Fight Club) or because I don't want to think at all (Super Troopers) not because it is the gay thing to do (Chuck and Buck, and Jeffery). I like to wear clothes to make comfortable not because its all the gay rage (Dolce and Gabbana, Versace) that is how I mange to live with myself.

"30 percent of all completed youth suicides are related to the issue of sexual identity."


Why do you think this is....I know why I almost succumb to it. I saw what gays were and I kept telling my self I am not like them I am not gay. I like baseball, I am not a sissy, I just like guys! Then I realized on day (with the help of my SOUTHERN BAPTIST friends) that being gay didn't mean all of that it meant I liked guys! That’s it, period nothing else. I had nothing to prove, no banner to wave, no war to wage, no masses to convert. It was just a non-issue.

I think a lot of those suicides are due to the fact that the people think that to be gay you have to change into the picture that started this post. They think they have to take up the "Gay MANual" and ACTUAL BOOK! After thumbing through the pages I thought Uggh this is what they think I am, and it was written by gays for gays.

You know I am only 30 years old, (yes, I was born in 1973 MaggieL) but I have learned quick, gays will use you for what they can tell you they are there for you then the very next week, wouldn't piss on you if you were on fire, and if anyone has the audacity to say that it isn't true is a bold faced liar. If you have been around the gay community for over 6 months you will see how they use one person after the next. Now, I will be the first to say there are gays that are NOT like this. I am not so stupid or so blind as not know that to every rule there are always exceptions and now, like always life is never an absolute. But, when you see it time and time again, it is hard not to be a little jaded. Maggie if you have never uttered the phrase to the tune of "I am so damn fed up with these queens/fags/queers. Then I am sorry I have cause to doubt anything else you say.

To be honest with you I am so sick of the ‘you have to be this to be gay’ syndrome is make me want to snap. I happen to like Hockey, and I like to sit around in my house while eating a chili dog and drinking a beer and kick back and enjoy a game. If gays are as diverse and unique as you suggest, find me 10 gays, just ten that can name off hand five professional hockey, football, baseball or basketball players. Why does one the most popular gay sites on the net Gay.com not even have a section for sports, but has a section called “Essential Gay CD’s – Must have queer CDs”. Oh that’s right I am gay and when that gene kicked in during conception so did the k d. Lang, Crystal Waters, ABBA, and the love of any musical gene, as well as the taste for any man under the age of 25 with rippling abs. Well I guess I am only a half-baked gay then, because I don’t like any of that shit. Are you trying to tell me that 10% of the entire population of the world, who happen to be gay or transgendered just happen to like all the same movies, music and activities, are you serious?!? Yet, they do? Or at least that’s what Gay.com and Out magazine The Advocate and queer.com (OutProud) seem to think.

So if you now still wonder why I think like I think and can’t stand the gay scene, well my friend it is because is fake and a complete farce. If I needed to know how to think then I would be back in the stodgy 1950’s. I really don’t see why I should fight my way out of one set of controls just to let another tell me what to do. You may decide to jump on the proverbial gay band wagon but, as for my self I’ll walk and be myself. That is the reason I can say the things I say about gay men and can still live with myself, because I am right and I am not brainwashed in to thinking that if I don’t march in the gay pride parade, put a rainbow flag on my car, or vote democratic then I am a “bad gay”. I am just me and if that is not what you like then well too damn bad, maybe I will start myself a “Bad Gay Games” it seems to be the trend!

[juju]

So, what's the worst thing that's happened to you as a result of being gay? Has anyone ever made fun of you? Called you a sicko? Have you ever had any negative reactions when people find out you're gay? If so, how did it make you feel? What percentage of people have a negative response? And where do you live?

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by philgump
Well when I describe other gays I am not describing myself

Well, I don't know what kind of a crowd you've run with in your life, but the idea that most gay men are the kind of flaming queens you are describing is just plain *wrong* in my experience...way beyond stereotype into total misconception.

Maybe you should get out more. So to speak. :-)

Do you really believe the bulk of the attendees at the Gay Games are typified by that one queen on skates? That's no more true than saying, for example, that most Philadelphia men are accurately represented by what you see in Mummer's Parade on New Year's Day.

None of the many gay men I've met through the Pink Pistols, the Lambda Amaterur Radio Club and in fact only two I can think of encountering elsewhere in 50 years of living were camped up to that extreme. (And even those two didn't cut loose like that except when they were strictly among friends.) Many, if not most of the gay men I know are at least interested in watching sports, even if they don't participate. (after all, in adition to the ordinary entertainment value, there's lots of prime beefcake running around in pro sports...it's just that for them the eyecandy is on the field instead of waving pompoms on the sidelines. ).

Also, "woman trapped in a man's body" is a cliche about transsexual women, not drag queens. I beleive the equivalant DQ cliche (if I can borrow from <i>Wong Foo</i>) is "A drag queen simply has too much style for one gender." Bear in mind that these are both cliches...for example, being a transsexual woman is a much more complex sitution than the trite phrase "a woman trapped in a man's body" can convey, particlarly because the line between mind and body can get blurry when the brain and sex hormones are involved.

In my experience, a DQ doesn't want to *become* a woman, if he did he'd be a transsexual. Instead he seeks to express for a period some platonic ultra-diva stylization of "femaleness" that I must confess I don't completely understand even though I perceive it through their behavior quite plainly.

[CharlieG]

Originally posted by MaggieL

Well, I don't know what kind of a crowd you've run with in your life, but the idea that most gay men are the kind of flaming queens you are describing is just plain *wrong* in my experience...way beyond stereotype into total misconception.

...snip...

Maggie,
I was going to stay out of this thread, as I really don't have anything to add, but suddenly I do.... To give an example of your point

Back in college I hung out (among other places) at the ham radio club. After about a year, I walk in at lunch time, and one of the guys I knew was chatting with this girl I liked - I made a joke about him hitting up on her, and they both started laughing, and he said "Charlie, after all this time, you still don't realize I'm gay?"

NEVER dawned on me - he was as "Normal" as the rest of us (Hams are strage anyaway right?), it's just he liked guys.

MY only complaints I have with _SOME_ of the gay comunity is a bit of defensiveness

Back when I was first dating, like most kids, I was doing some necking in public - it was pointed out to me (quietly) that this was NOT polite, and we stoped doing it - it makes people uncomfortable. Just like it was pointed out to me, if I know one or the other folks, I'll point it out to them. Usually by the time a person gets to the age of around 20, they understand this (Notice how rare it is to see folks playing serious kissy face in public)

However, at least around here (parts of NYC) you will continue to see this in CERTAIN sectors of the Male Gay comunity (I've NEVER seen it in the female comunity). When it's pointed out to them, they get defensive about it (not necessarly by me)

Want to hold hands? No problem - want a goodbye (hello/whatever) kiss, no problem. Want to make out? Take it private. (Hetero or Homo)

I guess that's really just a function of our ages. I don't much have a problem with people making out in public, though I can see how it's considered rude.

Maggie - I guess we look at male and female differently. I'm not saying that Brandon didn't live as a man, just that they had the physical characteristics of a female. As for the relationship... well, I feel bad for the girl involved, 'cause she was deceived (apparently), and that's not real cool. So no, I wouldn't consider it a lesbian relationship either. I'm not sure what I'd consider it.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by dave

Maggie - I guess we look at male and female differently.

Oh, I'm *certain* of that. :-) Having been down the road I have certainly does provide a unique point-of-view.

[
I'm not saying that Brandon didn't live as a man, just that they had the physical characteristics of a female.

That's the thing, though. Until they're actually climbing into the sack (or at least considering it), whether he has a penis or not isn't really relevant. Especially if he was on testosterone, (which I kind of doubt given his economic status at the time). I'm sure there's a good "Schrodinger's cat" joke in here somewhere.

[
As for the relationship... well, I feel bad for the girl involved, 'cause she was deceived (apparently), and that's not real cool.

"Deceived"? What if Brandon had been born male but lost his penis due to a mishap? Would his girlfriend have been "deceived" because he didn't introduce himself "Hi, I'm Brandon, I lost my dick in a harvester accident."?

We don't know how far their relationship had gone (well, actually we do know how far it *hadn't* gone), or even in what direction it was going.

Exactly at what point a transsexual person "should" disclose their backgrround to somebody else is a real conundrum. If it' s the first words out of their mouth when they meet someone, it gives the issue an importance that it doesn't deserve, and probably *does* rise to the "getting people's faces" level. If it's *never* disclosed, the TS is exposed to your charge of "deceiving" others. So it looks like the "right" answer must be somewhere inbetween...but where?

I certainly know of transexual women who got married and lived a happy life without ever telling their husbands. Assuming they *did* disclose that they were sterile before the marriage, I'm not sure I can criticize them, although it's not something *I* would ever do--too much of my life happened before my gender transition to simple pretend that it never happened and invent some "cover story" to explain my entire life "before".

So no, I wouldn't consider it a lesbian relationship either. I'm not sure what I'd consider it.

Having been in somewhat similar situations myself, I can probably speak with some understanding about what Brandon was feeling. Neither of the people in the relationship saw *themselves* as lesbians, so any claim that they "really were lesbians" is kind of empty.

And given that Brandon was raped and murdered essentially for standing by his belief that he was neither a lesbian nor a woman, I think his opinion in the matter should be given considerable weight.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by CharlieG

MY only complaints I have with _SOME_ of the gay comunity is a bit of defensiveness

I guess if queer folks weren't attacked so often, they wouldn't be quite so defenseive. :-)

[juju]

Originally posted by MaggieL
Having been in somewhat similar situations myself, I can probably speak with some understanding about what Brandon was feeling. Neither of the people in the relationship saw *themselves* as lesbians, so any claim that they "really were lesbians" is kind of empty.

And given that Brandon was raped and murdered essentially for standing by his belief that he was neither a lesbian nor a woman, I think his opinion in the matter should be given considerable weight.

Ah, so you're saying that the individual's definitions of words should be given more credence than the collective's definitions? I'm glad you're finally on my side!

[CharlieG]

Originally posted by MaggieL

I guess if queer folks weren't attacked so often, they wouldn't be quite so defenseive. :-)

Entirely possible!

Like I said, I hold all the folks I know to the same behavior standards, and most follow them - There are a few exceptions, both homo and hetro - they tend to be avoided by me.

I'm _VERY_ libertarian - I won't tell anyone they CAN'T make out in public - however, I will tell them that _I_ consider it in "bad taste". Then again, if I don't like it, I can leave.

I guess I'm one of those folks who really doesn't like ANYONE'S sexuality shoved in my face in public - In that, I'm probably kinda close to the 1950s standards. In private? Whatever floats your boat, so long as it's between consenting adults

[That Guy]

Originally posted by juju
And where do you live?

What -- are you going to show up with some muscle and teach him a lesson, or something?

[juju]

Heh. Nah, I was just trying to get a sense of what the society he lives in is like.

[MaggieL]

Originally posted by juju

Ah, so you're saying that the individual's definitions of words should be given more credence than the collective's definitions? I'm glad you're finally on my side!

Not at all.

I just have been learned though personal expereince that natal genitalia can be a very poor way to define gender.

I don't see this as a matter of individual vs. collective definitions or perception. But when the cops busted Brandon for passing bad paper, he failed the pants check, setting the whole sequence of events in motion leading to his rape and death, their operative definition was: innie=girl, outie=boy, just like Dave's. So they then announced to the world "Hey, that 'boy' ain't got no dick, so she ain't no boy".

I don't see this as a matter of "individual vs. collective". If Brandon percieved himself as male, and so did his girlfriend, then it makes little sense to define that relationship a homosexual one. Gay relationships *feel* gay; they're driven by the member-of-the-same-sex dynamic, just as hetero relationship are surfing on that opposites-attract energy. This is why so very few intimate relationships survive a gender transition.

Seems to me there was once a STNG epsode along these lines, too...

[philgump]

I am going to try to keep this post short, which means only two pages.

Juju: "So, what's the worst thing that's happened to you as a result of being gay?"
The worst would have to have been when a gaggle of idiots were driving down the street and yelled faggot and zoomed off.

JuJu "Have you ever had any negative reactions when people find out you're gay? If so, how did it make you feel?"
Yes, of course I have had negative reactions. These days you can get a negative reaction if you save an infant from drowning. There is never a way to please everyone. How did it make me feel? It didn't, I guess that is just part of how I was raised. I was raised with the belief that life is short, there are those that like you and those that don't those that do I seek out friendship, those that don't I could careless about. That by the way is the 'touchy feely' stuff I was speaking of earlier. If you have to wonder how those comments make a gay/queer/DQ/Transgendered person feel quid pro quo you should think of how it makes a right wing Christian feel. You see for some, religion may not be as strong but for an Orthodox Jew, Catholic, or many denominations of Protestant faith there is such a thing as a "Sin of Tolerance" this means if they do not take strides in tell the person at fault of his/her sins then they themselves have sinned. Now I have read the scriptures they are referring to and I think they have misunderstood the verse in question but, just as we have the right to think the way we want, they have the right to think the way they want.

JuJu: "What percentage of people have a negative response?"
Well, I don't have any hard statistics but I would say about 10% have had negative reactions and 70% positive. I know that leaves 20% out, well that goes in the can tell category. Some people that know I am gay I can't tell what they think. They don't seem to react at all, to me this would go in the positive category.

On a side note, it is not the negative I have a problem with. At least when someone says " I hates fags". I know where I stand. What I hate are the ones that find out from another acquaintance that you are gay and they have to go out of there way to tell me that "It's great that you are gay" or " I have no problem with gays, I just want you to know that" those people I have no time for. They are not saying for my benefit they are doing it either because they don't want to look like a bigot or they are trying to convince themselves that what they are saying is true.

JuJu: "And where do you live?"
Well when I first realized I was gay and started my first (and only) relationship I lived in Memphis, Tennessee and Now I live just outside of Fort Lauderdale, Florida. So maybe all the flaming queens just live here in South Florida. My parents live in Mississippi and the whole town (Harmontown; Population: 75) knows and they all can't wait to see me when I get home. (Part of this is I think that they all want to say they know a gay person) but, I would hardly say it was a negative reaction. If anything it is like a one up or a bragging right, “Yeah well I got to eat lunch with a gay guy”, while I wouldn’t say they are sincere it is a much more constructive way to deal with it than typing me to a fence and setting me on fire. I think it certainly shows people are trying to change, but you cannot expect it to disappear overnight. There was one other person that lived there that was gay and everyone was *highly* denfensive of him. Once my mom called to tell me how a tourist had stopped by (The town is on the egde of a very large lake) and called 'Big Mike' a fag. Two of the local men ended up in jail for both attacking the tourist at the same time. I tried to look up the article that ran in The Oxford Eagle (local paper), but I had no luck.

So much for keeping it short.