Government Shut Down

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Lamplighter

It is FAUX drama and as you say... all the rest above is well known.

Why is the government shutdown happening in the first place ...
Is it because the GOP is fighting in every way it can to kill Obamacare ?
I think the answer for most people is a simple, Yes.

No. Obamacare is just ONE problem. The bigger problems are:

1) Obama wants to "redistribute wealth", which never goes over well with conservatives. They have that odd idea that their money should stay with them.

I know, what a concept.

2) Obama has relentlessly expanded gov't. Number of employee's - way up, expenses - WAY UP, debt ceiling - WAY UP! Obamacare simply moves the feds into your entire medical treatments, etc. Conservatives definitely don't WANT the federal gov't, running their lives, or running their medical care! Once your medial records are all digitized, how long before your personal ID information is hacked into and stolen?

You say "Oh, that could never happen!". That's what you thought about Operation Prism when the Patriot Bill was passed, remember?
Gov't computers are hacked - even the Pentagon's.

As gov't continues to grow, YOU become smaller, and have far less control over your life.

3) Obama refuses to take obvious steps that would endear him to business: keystone pipeline project, remove the medical devices tax he just added, simplify the tax code a bit, and surprise, lower the medical costs, by simply enacting some parts of the legislation in Obamacare, without the rest of it.

4) Obama has given very little respect to the Republicans in general, and conservatives in particular, throughout his term. Every serious error he's made, has been glossed over by the media so incredibly, it's ridiculous.

And then there's sonOfABitch in the Senate, and Reid is just someone who's hard to get any negotiating done with. Same with Pelosi, when she was House leader.

I did get a hell of a laugh out of Pelosi's statement: "food stamps are a great way to stimulate the economy". That one had me rolling in the aisle.

Now Obama wants to negotiate, as will Reid and the Senate, ONLY after the shutdown is ended, and the debt ceiling is raised.

Sure! "I'll be glad to negotiate with you, right after I've gotten everything I wanted!"

That's not negotiating, is it? That's what the democrats are calling it, but that's not negotiating.

If the so, how do you balance your "just one child" against the GOP goal
of killing a program of health care benefits for several millions.
Among those millions, would there be "just one child" to die for lack of medical care ?
I think the answer for most people is a simple, Yes.


It's the difference between the GOP's concern over $,
and the Democrat's concern for the people's welfare,
by advancing government programs to do the most
good possible for those that need it most.

When it comes down to it, naming-calling and "gotcha moments" are, indeed, faux drama.

Since every person will be treated in any emergency room, with or without money, your argument is mostly false. Clearly, lots of people don't get the kind of regular medical exams, etc., that would benefit them, however. I agree that we need a better health care plan in the country. But I don't want the feds running it.

Strangely enough, I'd like doctors, hospital managers, and medical insurance experts running our health plan.

[Lamplighter]

Adak, do you re-write your posts each time like this,
or do you copy/paste from some where ?

If you wish, you could just insert a link. Here it is it for your post above.
http://www.cellar.org/showpost.php?p...4&postcount=91

Likewise, I'll just insert a link for my response, like this.

----

OK, now back for the reason the GOP caused this government shutdown... Obamacare.

<snip>Since every person will be treated in any emergency room,
with or without money, your argument is mostly false.
Clearly, lots of people don't get the kind of regular medical exams, etc.,
that would benefit them, however.
I agree that we need a better health care plan in the country.
But I don't want the feds running it.

Strangely enough, I'd like doctors, hospital managers,
and medical insurance experts running our health plan.

Lets quibble a bit....

As examples:
NIH is a federal facility that is treating (some) patients as part of health research projects.
VA hospitals are federal facilities around the country that are treating veterans.

Who do you feel should run these... for-profit corporations ?

As alternative examples:
With Obamacare, anyone can sign up for A.C.A. plans of health care coverage.
All of their care will come via existing hospitals and doctors,
managed by hospital managers in health care plans created
by medical insurance experts ... not as part of the federal facilities system.
Then reimbursement $ comes from that plan's health insurance provider.

In some situations, patients who qualify for Medicare and/or Medicaid
(and/or perhaps some other federal programs) will also be treated
in these same non-federal system hospitals, but reimbursement $
comes from the federal government.

How does Obamacare NOT fit you "likes" ?

[Adak]

I write up every reply, individually. A link isn't well received and won't be used, unless it's corroborating the posted text of your reply.

to fit my likes:

1) my medical history stays OUTSIDE any federal databases.

2) the national plan is for everyone. No exemptions, no tax credits, refunds, etc.No unions or corporations get a pass to stay outside the system, etc. If they want more medical coverage than the national plan offers, they can buy it, of course, but EVERYONE is in the national plan if they are a citizen.

Non-citizens are not in the plan, and can't join the plan. They don't get free medical care on our dime, as is currently the case.

Without a broad base of healthy people, any medical insurance system will go broke, or have to charge exorbitant prices, before long.

3) no "send Grandma home with a pain pill instead of a treatment". "Grandma" gets the same good treatment as the rest of us, if she's in the plan.

4) we pay the same prices as Canada, and the rest of the world, for our drugs. Having us forced to pay 2 to 5 x as much, is a travesty.

5) no changes can be made to the national plan, without a 45 day period of consideration, AFTER the bill is proposed, IN FULL.

No more of this "we'll find out what's in the bill, after we pass it".

I'm quite familiar with the VA hospitals. Their policies nearly killed my dad.

[xoxoxoBruce]

If the shills for the 1% hadn't been screaming bad, socialist, redistribution of wealth, and actually worked for it, then everything thing you've listed could have been in this act.

But because of that obstructive action Obama had to weaken the plan by making deals with the drug companies, AMA, Insurance companies, medical equipment manufacturers, et al.
And don't tell me they should have debated it longer before voting, that's bullshit. The same people would have voted the same way, like they were told to.

Those corporations are powerful because they've got money out the wazoo to buy politicians and hire enough lobbyists to keep a tight rein on them.
But the fact remains, no matter how big a war chest the politicians are given, it's stupid voters,(hey that's my party right or wrong) and apathetic voters, (why bother my vote don't count) that allow them to keep screwing us.

[Lamplighter]

Despite my " liberal tendencies "... I do try to read the occasional conservative news source.

I came across this article from Bloomberg News that I find interesting and believable.
But be warned, the article is about a report from a highly Democratic political strategist.

Bloomberg - The Ticker
Francis Wilkinson
Oct 4, 2013
Why Republicans Shut Down the Government

If you want to understand why the government is shut down
or why elected Republicans would even consider doing something as reckless
as using a debt default to extract policy concessions from the White House
-- without necessarily even knowing which policy concessions they want --
Stan Greenberg has a memo for you.

Democracy Corps issued a report this week on six focus groups conducted
with Republican subgroups -- two each with Tea Partiers, Evangelicals and moderate Republicans.
The results somehow manage to be unsurprising and shocking at the same time
-- largely due to the bracing effects of reading the real words of (almost) average Americans.
<snip>

http://www.democracycorps.com/attach...ticle/954/dcor rpp fg 1000313 final.pdf
This link (above) will download a pdf file of the "memo" entitled:

Inside the GOP: Report on focus groups with Evangelical,
Tea Party, and moderate Republicans

<snip>
The Republican moderates were staunch fiscal conservatives, but most readily embraced
new gender relations and minority empowerment, including gay rights.
The Tea Partiers and evangelicals spoke as if they were in the midst of War of the Worlds.
As the report characterizes the Tea-Party worldview:
"Obama's America is an unmitigated evil based on big government, regulations and dependency."

The Bloomberg article continues...

It's a tough situation to rectify.
A lot of Americans were not ready for a mixed-race president.
They weren't ready for gay marriage.
They weren't ready for the wave of legal and illegal immigration
that redefined American demographics over the past two or three
decades, bringing in lots of nonwhites.
They weren't ready -- who was? -- for the brutal effects of globalization
on working- and middle-class Americans or the devastating fallout from the financial crisis.

Their representatives didn't stop Obamacare.
And their side didn't "take back America" in 2012 as Fox News
and conservative radio personalities led them to believe they would.
They feel the culture is running away from them (and they're mostly right).
They lack the power to control their own government.
But they still have just enough to shut it down.

I downloaded the pdf memo and I do recommend it those interested in straight and raw politics .
As the Forbes article says, it is both unsurprising and shocking.
These focus groups definitely are NOT always using politically correct language !

[sexobon]

Through early morning fog I see
Through never ending debates I see
Visions of the things to be
Visions of lost security
The pains that are withheld for me
The culture running away from me
I realize and I can see...
I realize and I can see...

That suicide is painless
That govm't shutdown is painless
It brings on many changes
It brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please
And I can take or leave it if I please

I try to find a way to make
I try to find a way to make
All our little joys relate
All our political views relate
Without that ever-present hate
Without that ever-present hate
But now I know that it's too late, and...
But now I know that it's too late, and...

Suicide is painless
Govm't shutdown is painless
It brings on many changes
It brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please
And I can take or leave it if I please

The game of life is hard to play
The game of politics isn't hard to play
I'm gonna lose it anyway
We're gonna nay it anyway
The losing card I'll someday lay
The loser's price I'll someday pay
So this is all I have to say
So this is all I have to say

That suicide is painless
That govm't shutdown is painless
It brings on many changes
It brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please
And I can take or leave it if I please

The only way to win is cheat
The only way to win is cheat
And lay it down before I'm beat
And vote it down into defeat
And to another give my seat
And on another put some heat
For that's the only painless feat
For that's the only priceless feat

And suicide is painless
And govm't shutdown is painless
It brings on many changes
It brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please
And I can take or leave it if I please

The sword of time will pierce our skins
The budget cuts will pierce our skins
It doesn't hurt when it begins
It doesn't hurt when they begin
But as it works its way on in
But as they work their way on in
The pain grows stronger...watch it grin, but...
The pain grows stronger...watch them grin, but...

Suicide is painless
Govm't shutdown is painless
It brings on many changes
It brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please
And I can take or leave it if I please

A brave man once requested me
A President once requested me
To answer questions that are key
To gather votes that are key
'Is it to be or not to be'
To pass through Congress by majority
And I replied 'Oh why ask me?'
And I replied 'Oh that's not me?'

'Cause suicide is painless
'Cause govm't shutdown is painless
It brings on many changes
It brings on many changes
And I can take or leave it if I please
And I can take or leave it if I please
...and you can do the same thing if you choose
...and you can do the same thing if you're a fool

[Adak]

The timing of the next election for Representatives, is critical. The Republicans that were elected in 2012, will be up for re-election next year, and they BETTER be able to show their districts/precincts that they have taken conservative actions during their term.

Or they won't have another one.

I'd like to believe that Obamacare can be fixed, and put back into the national health care plan I noted, in my last post. I'm afraid however, that it will wind up with an arcane set of regulations, rivaling that of the IRS - with umpteen winners and losers, and tiers in between, all wrapped up in a Gordian Knot.

The shut down is just the answer to the question "What can a conservative do, to slow down the fast-running liberal train, in American politics?

Right now, that "thing you can do" is to help slow or stop Obamacare, and maybe through negotiations, win some other concessions. Maybe a cut in actual spending NOW, maybe the keystone pipeline, but throw them a bone, a win of some kind, here.

Not Obamacare, of course, but SOMETHING tangible.

Because nothing else the conservatives have done in the past 2 years, has amounted to a hill of beans. The conservatives know it. The conservative Representatives know that their voters know it, and neither their voters at home, nor the Reps in Congress, are happy about it.

For his part, Boehner knows he has been way too quiet, and way too compromising, for way too long. If he kept it up, he'd have been replaced (again!) as the Republican leader in the House.

So the Democrat egged on enough Republicans to get something racist, something anti-gay, something goofy or dumb, and he has it published as "REAL".

Why am I not surprised? I can do the same leading questions to a bunch of Democrats, and wind up with the same stupid replies, to justify my position that Democrats are racists, intellectually dishonest, and baby-killers.

Proving absolutely nothing. No consensus has been reached, no negotiations have made progress. It's just name calling, the other side.

Sure, that's what we need right now - more name calling - that writer must be a political genius!

[Adak]

The longer the shut down, the more closely the repercussions of it will remain as part of Obama's legacy.

In the short run, they (Obama and the media) can pin this on the conservatives, but those lousy historians will keep it tied right in with Obama's term.

I'm curious how far each party wants to go with this, as the deadline for a debt crisis, draws every closer.

I thought Obama did the right thing by calling the parties together to negotiate, and I'm not surprised that no actual negotiations took place. It's too early for that.

Time and tide, time and tide.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Adak

In the short run, they (Obama and the media) can pin this on the conservatives, but those lousy historians will keep it tied right in with Obama's term.

And that's what this is all about for ADAK & Co, do everything possible to make that uppity Muslim Kenyan look bad, regardless of the damage to the country and the people.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

And that's what this is all about for ADAK & Co, do everything possible to make that uppity Muslim Kenyan look bad, regardless of the damage to the country and the people.

I don't care if the President is purple - if he has good policies that succeed in running the country, and abides by the Constitution and our laws - then I'm for him/her/whatever.

Let's remember, just for a moment, what party was formed, to fight the slavery issue.

What party was that?

What party did Abraham Lincoln belong to?

What party did Martin Luther King Jr. belong to?

When Little Rock revolted against racial integration, and the President had to order in the 101st Airborne Regiment, to restore order, what party did that President belong to?

For ALL the above, that would be the Republican Party!


What party did all the Southern Jim Crow lawmakers belong to, for decades?

What party did the governors who rallied the townspeople against racial integration in the schools, causing riots, belong to?

In Arkansas, where the 101st Airborne Regiment was brought in to restore civil order and enforce integration, what party did that governor belong to?

And in Alabama, when the governor not only rallied his city against racial integration, but himself tried to physically block it, what party did he belong to?

All the KKK lynchers were all card carrying members of what party?
(can't prove this, but everyone knew)


For all the second part, the answer would be the Democratic Party.

In truth both parties have their racists, but historically, the Democrats have FAR outweighed the Republicans in racists.

That's true in Federal, as well as state governments. So your racist slur is a bit off the mark, Bruce.

And living in the rural South, I have a long memory of the separate drinking fountains, separate entrances, separate businesses, etc. If you want to get a feel for what it was like, read the book "Black Like Me". It's not a horrific account of an adventure being a black man, but you get an accurate depiction of it, imo.

It was a movie as well.

Side Note: The guy who dyed his skin black (with the help of a doctor), did eventually die of cancer caused by the treatments to make his skin black, iirc.

[glatt]

Originally Posted by Adak

In truth both parties have their racists, but historically, the Democrats have FAR outweighed the Republicans in racists.

I've always found this to be curious. Why did the racists jump from the embrace of the Democrats to the Republicans over the course of 50 years?

Of course, the racism of today isn't usually as blatant as it was 50 years ago. Much more subtle.

[Lamplighter]

Pres Johnson predicted the jump when he signed the Civil Rights Bill

It's now the difference is between racism de jure vs de facto, particularly
in those areas of the country affected by the Civil Rights Law.

[Adak]

After Kennedy was assassinated, there was a huge outpouring of sympathy and sense of loss. President Johnson used that (he was a power broker politician, I can tell you!), to pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Truly landmark law, that Kennedy wanted, but couldn't get enough support for. President Johnson did, and no one wanted to be on record voting against it - except the racists, of course.

Other civil rights legislation followed, with Democrats in charge. Racists bailed. Some old and politically strong Republicans were racists, and they coddled them for further support.

Democrats were sick of them, by then anyway.

[Griff]

Read up on Nixon's Southern Strategy as well.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Adak

For ALL the above, that would be the Republican Party!
For all the second part, the answer would be the Democratic Party.

It's not the party, the party is what the party does, and that changes regularly. The hard core conservative racists migrate occasionally, the last time to the tea party hoping the tea party would save America, but ended up getting owned and becoming shills for the fat cats.

And living in the rural South, I have a long memory of the separate drinking fountains, separate entrances, separate businesses, etc.

I spent enough time in the south during the 50's to know Jim Crow.

That's true in Federal, as well as state governments. So your racist slur is a bit off the mark, Bruce.

Unfortunately it's dead on when mimicking the conservative wing that's taken over talk radio and a huge chunk of the internet, spewing hate and lies with great abandon.

I get emails forwarded to me that are making their way through the conservative network. Mostly outrageous claims and twisted truths, but the email will contain links proving they're telling the truth. But if you go to the links they say the exact opposite, which means these morons in the header history, read it, believed it, forwarded it, but never checked it.

Originally Posted by Adak

After Kennedy was assassinated, there was a huge outpouring of sympathy and sense of loss. President Johnson used that (he was a power broker politician, I can tell you!), to pass the Civil Rights Act of 1964.

Yes, JFK's murder brought the country together, and Johnson used it to do good.
9-11 brought the country together and we know what Bush did with it.